Kiteboarding is not a crime
Moderator: MK
Kiteboarding is not a crime
Peter C and I received tickets for Kiteboarding on Calhoun about 30 min ago. The tickets say "on ice when posted not safe". Nice!
Brian,
I just called the Park Police and asked when the Ice Not Safe signs went up. They said they are always up and they won't ever tell us the ice is safe. So my question is how can they give us a citation for being on the ice if they won't confirm that it is ever safe? Don't they put a hockey rink on Lake of the Isles, and didn't our mayor just ski in a ski race on the same ice in front of the same sign that just got us a citation?
I feel the ice is safe and I would like to go back out on Calhoun in this new snow. Will they arrest me next time?
Peter C
I just called the Park Police and asked when the Ice Not Safe signs went up. They said they are always up and they won't ever tell us the ice is safe. So my question is how can they give us a citation for being on the ice if they won't confirm that it is ever safe? Don't they put a hockey rink on Lake of the Isles, and didn't our mayor just ski in a ski race on the same ice in front of the same sign that just got us a citation?
I feel the ice is safe and I would like to go back out on Calhoun in this new snow. Will they arrest me next time?
Peter C
Someone should quickly go out and document the ice thickness with auger, video and local today's paper. The DNR's site suggests that ice is safe for foot travel when it is 4 inches.
BTW, another thing I'd check into is what authority posted the signs.
The problem with kiting is that it's like a big advertisement to the city dwellers saying, "come out, the ice is fine!"
One solution would be to not kite on Calhounes. It's kind of a nasty place to kite.
BTW, another thing I'd check into is what authority posted the signs.
The problem with kiting is that it's like a big advertisement to the city dwellers saying, "come out, the ice is fine!"
One solution would be to not kite on Calhounes. It's kind of a nasty place to kite.
Eric,
Those are good suggestions. I don't have an ice auger, but if anyone has one and wants to check the thickness, it would be good information to know if this happens again.
As far as not riding on Calhoun. I intend to keep riding there. These lakes are what make living in Minneapolis so great. I live in the city and I have a nice lake five minutes from home. With two younger children my ride time is usually short, and this lake is fine in the winter. While the wind may not be perfect, kiting under the backdrop of our city is pretty cool. I think our kiting community has been very careful and safty conscious of Lake Calhoun.
Peter C
Those are good suggestions. I don't have an ice auger, but if anyone has one and wants to check the thickness, it would be good information to know if this happens again.
As far as not riding on Calhoun. I intend to keep riding there. These lakes are what make living in Minneapolis so great. I live in the city and I have a nice lake five minutes from home. With two younger children my ride time is usually short, and this lake is fine in the winter. While the wind may not be perfect, kiting under the backdrop of our city is pretty cool. I think our kiting community has been very careful and safty conscious of Lake Calhoun.
Peter C
(been there, done that.)I'm up checking wind but remembered this link from the Knowledge section
http://www.mvp-wc.usace.army.mil/ice/safety.html
It might be useful for fighting the man.
I was also thinking that they are going to nail you if you go to court. If you say that you saw, read and understood the signs that were posted you will pay the fine.
One avenue you might persue would be that you didn't 'understand' the signs. Perhaps the signs were informing you that the 'ice' in the parking areas was not safe and to take care in manuvering your vehicle. blah blah.
I would think that convincing the judge that the signs were confusing, along with some evidence that the ice was 'safe' i.e. able to support you and your kite would be enough to toss out the fine, although, you'll spend your free time defending yourself, which, might be more costly to you than paying the fine.
Good Luck!
http://www.mvp-wc.usace.army.mil/ice/safety.html
It might be useful for fighting the man.
I was also thinking that they are going to nail you if you go to court. If you say that you saw, read and understood the signs that were posted you will pay the fine.
One avenue you might persue would be that you didn't 'understand' the signs. Perhaps the signs were informing you that the 'ice' in the parking areas was not safe and to take care in manuvering your vehicle. blah blah.
I would think that convincing the judge that the signs were confusing, along with some evidence that the ice was 'safe' i.e. able to support you and your kite would be enough to toss out the fine, although, you'll spend your free time defending yourself, which, might be more costly to you than paying the fine.
Good Luck!
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Kevinousdigian
- Posts: 646
- Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2002 10:37 pm
I'm sorry to hear about the ticket Brian and Peter. This would be a good one to call the news station up and like Eric said bring the ice auger. Our great cities are complaining about not having enough tax dollars and there is a need for more cops blah blah blah..... So we have our tax dollars going towards paying someone to fine someone for enjoying lakes (just like the mayor did when they skied on it). Just think how many real crimes were going on a few miles from there the same day you were enjoying the lakes. The principle of the whole thing would make me want to hire an attorney but it's not worth the time and $. It is probably easiest to pay the dumb fine and that's exactly what they think you'll do. Do the signs actually clearly say that you'll be fined for going on the ice?
Pete, I just hope your not classified as a 'repeat offender'.
I'll get off my soapbox....
KO
Pete, I just hope your not classified as a 'repeat offender'.
I'll get off my soapbox....
KO
Kevin Ousdigian
Here's a defense:
Here's a defense:
Eric said, "I was also thinking that they are going to nail you if you go to court. If you say that you saw, read and understood the signs that were posted you will pay the fine."
That's not entirely true. Seeing the signs and going anyway or pleading ignorance is not a defense. So, if you say you didn't see the signs - you'll get nailed. If you say you saw the signs - you'll get nailed. If you said you understood or didn't understand the signs - nailed either way.
But... The only real defense is saying you saw, understood to the best of your knowledge the intent of the signs, and interpreted the signs to mean the ice was unsafe *in certain areas*. They may call you on ignorance that you should know the signs mean don't be on the ice at all, but you can claim expertise in the area and knowledge that the ice is indeed safe in most areas and so the signs seemed inappropriate... this is probably the base of any contention you would have fighting the tickets. For the rest, see all previous posts on how to prove the ice was safe...
So, the fight boils down to knowledge and intent. You (supposedly) knew that the signs meant to not be on the ice, possibly in certain areas, and you determined that the ice in the places you wanted to utilize it was fine. You are a frequent ice-user (for what it's worth), check the ice depth regularly, and therefore comsider yourself an expert.
You can not accept responsibility for others ability to make, or not make, the same determination themselves - therefore your presence on the ice should not be interpreted by others as a sign that all of the ice is safe.
Remember, intent *IS* 9/10th of the law.
Excuse the soapbox response, but tickets like that really piss me off.
-Coach
Eric said, "I was also thinking that they are going to nail you if you go to court. If you say that you saw, read and understood the signs that were posted you will pay the fine."
That's not entirely true. Seeing the signs and going anyway or pleading ignorance is not a defense. So, if you say you didn't see the signs - you'll get nailed. If you say you saw the signs - you'll get nailed. If you said you understood or didn't understand the signs - nailed either way.
But... The only real defense is saying you saw, understood to the best of your knowledge the intent of the signs, and interpreted the signs to mean the ice was unsafe *in certain areas*. They may call you on ignorance that you should know the signs mean don't be on the ice at all, but you can claim expertise in the area and knowledge that the ice is indeed safe in most areas and so the signs seemed inappropriate... this is probably the base of any contention you would have fighting the tickets. For the rest, see all previous posts on how to prove the ice was safe...
So, the fight boils down to knowledge and intent. You (supposedly) knew that the signs meant to not be on the ice, possibly in certain areas, and you determined that the ice in the places you wanted to utilize it was fine. You are a frequent ice-user (for what it's worth), check the ice depth regularly, and therefore comsider yourself an expert.
You can not accept responsibility for others ability to make, or not make, the same determination themselves - therefore your presence on the ice should not be interpreted by others as a sign that all of the ice is safe.
Remember, intent *IS* 9/10th of the law.
Excuse the soapbox response, but tickets like that really piss me off.
-Coach
Just a quick question - do the signs just say "Ice Not Safe?" Is there a sign posted anywhere that says "Keep Off Ice?"
The two are very different things...from my recollection it seems that if the "Ice Not Safe" signs are up all year, then there is very little basis for the park police to give you a ticket. This year the park service, I assume, was the one that brushed off the ice for the skating rink (north beach) on Calhoun (there were often people practicing with speed skates there). If the same signs were posted then as now, the park service was being ambiguous (in the same manner as hosting the ski race)...I believe that normally you need to be clearly violating posted warnings in order for them to fine you. If you present it right you might have a very convincing argument for the Judge...
Question is though will they post "Stay Off Ice" signs next year if you argue the ticket?
Michael Fox
The two are very different things...from my recollection it seems that if the "Ice Not Safe" signs are up all year, then there is very little basis for the park police to give you a ticket. This year the park service, I assume, was the one that brushed off the ice for the skating rink (north beach) on Calhoun (there were often people practicing with speed skates there). If the same signs were posted then as now, the park service was being ambiguous (in the same manner as hosting the ski race)...I believe that normally you need to be clearly violating posted warnings in order for them to fine you. If you present it right you might have a very convincing argument for the Judge...
Question is though will they post "Stay Off Ice" signs next year if you argue the ticket?
Michael Fox
I think the sign said Danger Ice Not Safe, Keep Off. Brian may rememeber better.
But either way. my defence would be along the lines of some of your posts. That the parkboard puts up these signs to release them from liability. They are up all year long. So isn't it up to us to decide if the ice is safe. And if we know that it's 4 inches thick ot thicker, following the DNR's guidlines, we should be able to go out on it.
I'm not as concerned about my possible fine as I am about the police starting to regulate when we can and can't go out on the ice.
Peter C
But either way. my defence would be along the lines of some of your posts. That the parkboard puts up these signs to release them from liability. They are up all year long. So isn't it up to us to decide if the ice is safe. And if we know that it's 4 inches thick ot thicker, following the DNR's guidlines, we should be able to go out on it.
I'm not as concerned about my possible fine as I am about the police starting to regulate when we can and can't go out on the ice.
Peter C
My experience with fighting a ticket is that you will at a minimum get the fine reduced just for taking time to complain. How did you get the ticket anyway? Did they have to come out on the ice to give it to you or did they ticket your car? I think the "ice not safe, keep off" is intended for your vehicle. Kiting and windsurfing are water sports weather the water is hard or soft. We can wear safety gear that will allow us to be safe at anytime. I have been on the ice at Calhoun when half the lake is open water and at times had to walk out through water to get on the ice. The park police need more education about our wind sports.
Good luck!!!!!
Good luck!!!!!
It was the fun police. They arrest people that are having too much fun. Years ago I used to have a favorite swimming hole. A lot of people did until they make it against the law. They say they were afraid of someone drowning. They never do anything to hurt snow-mobilers they even driver over open water. I think that’s because of the profit factor, and the huge lobbyist the manufactures provide. That’s why there are such few restrictions on jet skis and snow mobiles. We just need to buy a few politicians so we have the right to kite. Just be sure to spread the money around to both Demacrates and Republicans that way we can't loose.