Tuesday

[bscheig]

Anyone interested in some riding Tuesday afternoon or evening, before the snow gets rained away? Medicine Lake?

Bill

[Futahaguro]

I was already thinking of it and Medicine Lake was my #1 choice because I will be coming out of downtown going west. I am hoping to get over there by 3PM or so. I will post here to confirm. I was thinking of the SE boat launch since it is almost a straight S wind.

Thoughts?

[JRN]

BILL, DOES KITING CURE THE FLU? I got the bug, but just walked across WBL, and yes, I DO walk on water. Ask anyone. How 'bout if I stay downwind? (my one & only talent)

[MK]

Med Lk - confirmed

[Futahaguro]

First, if anyone happens to find a small wrist remote control for my Drift video cam drop me a line. I doubt anyone will find it but I had it hooked on my spreader bar, which came unhooked a few times. I didn't expect that.

So here are some things I figured out, some in regards to the HQ Apex II 10M:

-DON'T TWIST UP YOUR LINES:) I probably would have been fine if I knew what I was doing because I could have untwisted it when it was flying by spinning the bar but I was paranoid. So I took 30 minutes to un-twist them, once I created a rats nest of lines, and re-hook every line. That is one way to learn how to do it:)

-The kite does not like to fly unhooked. I am still paranoid that I will be the recipient of a kitemare so I thought I would practice unhooked just to get it in the air (I have a leash). Well, what I figured out is that when you do that you are flying on full brakes so it REALLY doesn't want to fly:) Which leads me to...

-If I keep the brakes on, it stays on the ground quite well. Which leads me to...

-I need to buy some ice stakes. If I had some I could have laid out the kite, put my board on it to make sure it didn't go anywhere, run-out the lines and hook the brakes to the stake, and then go fetch my board and let the kite hang out on the brakes. Then I can strap in and remove the stake. Once I feel confident enough to strap in:)

-I also found that the method on winding the lines with the brakes on works well to pull in the kite. I saw on a kiting site that you can first wind the brake line a couple of times to keep them engaged and then wind the rest when you are done. This way you can drag it toward you as you wind it so you can then put it away.

-I had read that the throw on the HQ depower bars is long and I can now confirm that. I am 5'10" and it was at almost full stretched reach for no brakes.

-Even when the kite is wound up after falling on the ground it is not too tough to untangle it with some coaxing. However, I can now see the advantage of LEIs. There are a lot of lines up in that bridle.

Overall I had a great time learing things. When that thing gets wound up it can move you:) I also was always flying it low because I can tell it will lift me if I want it to, or don't want it to as is the case at the moment because I feel like kiting another day:)

Sorry I didn't say hello to anyone, I was optimizing my time to learn how to fly;)

[JRN]

FUTU: Did you fully engage the de-power strap before going unhooked? This is usually standard practice on LEI's. I shared your frustration with foils: Often spending the bulk of the evening in the basement getting un-tangled (no pun intended). That is what drew me to the Peter Lynn foils with minimal bridals, rigging more like a conventional kite and can be used on the water as well. Locally, Seth uses this brand so take a look next time he's out. I finally joined the club and went back to LEI's year round, but hung onto my 5m PL foil. It is a high wind wonder, that held steady in 40+ mph gusts at a pre-crossing session on Milly. You could also try a spinning shackle to help prevent line twists when the kite loops. The slingshot site had some in stock at last look. Try shortening your steering lines to compensate for the long bar throw. Then you can sheet in the depower comeasurately and fly it that way. Have fun this winter!

[Matt V]

Bar throw is really long on these, but I use the Ozone "Access SB" harness which keeps the hook very low and gives me access to the entire range of depower.

I owned an HQ 7.5m Apex II and sold it. Mostly because it was redundant in my quiver. But I can say that I was never happy with its back stall issues. I use the term BACKSTALL in place of SHEETING THE KITE WRONG, which means either pulling in on the bar too much or letting out on the bar too much when trying to get power out of the kite. SHEETING THE KITE WRONG or BACKSTALL is ultimately a kiter error and not a kite shortcoming, though some kites are easier for the kiter to sheet the kite wrong. Thus it is common to say that a kite that requires more sheeting angle attention has bad backstall.

For your Apex II, you would definitely need to set the depower so that the angle of attack (AOA) is just right at the part of the window where you would unhook. This kite may even require pigtail extensions to accomplish this. For general flying there is no forgiveness with this kite for some one who does not know how to use the bar to trim the AOA on the fly according to the variables such as kite speed, apparent wind, kite acceleration (deceleration), location in the window and so forth. If you can not handle this, inflatables are the best alternative because you really do not have to precisely change the AOA via the bar according to those variables. Inflatables, due to their LEI only support, allow some automatic non kiter controlled sheeting n(canopy distortion). Thus you can fly an inflatable wrong and still have it pull you around, just not at peak efficiency. Foils, with 100% support of the entire canopy from front to back with the bridles, require you to sheet them properly at all times. Though this is counter intuitive, foils actually have a more rigid shape while flying than inflatables. This leads to inflatables being just plain easier to fly for someone who does not understand these concepts or thinks that you do not need to exploit proper sheeting angle at all times with both types of kites. Precise/proper sheeting angle is a must for foils and a huge plus if you can apply that to inflatables also.

With your 10m Apex II, however, you will learn the advanced concepts of depower kites that most tube kite fliers never really grasp. With a super forgiving kite, inflatable users never really get the full range of power and upwind/downwind capabilities that you will get from flying and understanding your Apex II.

After selling my 7.5 Apex II, I purchased a 3m Apex III. I thought that HQ would have solved the back stall issue by adding another set of pulleys, but they did not. Still, my 3m Apex III is the best teaching kite I could possibly own. I like to let tube kiters fly it and wait for them to say "the bar works backwards on this kite". Once they stumble upon that, I go into the explanation of how an airplane wing stalls at the wrong angle of attack, or how tell-tails work on a catamaran sail. Disbelief is usually what I encounter when I basically tell them that they have been flying their tube kites wrong. Then, after a few water sessions, they come up to me and say that they now "understand" and were always killing the power in the kite by sheeting it in too much.

The HQ Montana series, of which I have experience with the "Montana V" and "Montana VI", is a more advanced kite but actually is more forgiving on the backstall issue. The Matrixx series is comparable to the Montana overall in backstall but has a little quirk on the bar that has me completely baffled on the first 2-3 sessions when coming from my inflatables at the end of the water season. After those first few sessions at the beginning of the season I am set and have nothing but great things to say about my Matrixx's. And I love the performance of the Matrixx and Montana's over my old Ozone's.

With the Apex IV, I am hoping that HQ has finally come out with a kite that will please beginners who want forgiveness and do not really care about learning the intricacies as much. So I am actually hoping that the new Apex's are more like the dumbed down Ozone "Access" series of kites. That said, every snowkiter out there who has mastered the Apex II's or III's has more precision sheeting angle skill than any "tubie only" kiter will ever achieve.

[Futahaguro]

FUTU: Did you fully engage the de-power strap before going unhooked? This is usually standard practice on LEI's.

Uh, <insert newbie gaze> do you mean the sheeting adjustment? The AOA, power adjuster, whatever, that controls the front 2 lines? I did start figuring that out once I realized that if I tugged the front lines and it launched the kite only to fall back down when I released them. That is how I figured out that I needed to hook in.

I shared your frustration with foils: Often spending the bulk of the evening in the basement getting un-tangled (no pun intended). That is what drew me to the Peter Lynn foils with minimal bridals, rigging more like a conventional kite and can be used on the water as well. Locally, Seth uses this brand so take a look next time he's out. I finally joined the club and went back to LEI's year round, but hung onto my 5m PL foil. It is a high wind wonder, that held steady in 40+ mph gusts at a pre-crossing session on Milly. You could also try a spinning shackle to help prevent line twists when the kite loops. The slingshot site had some in stock at last look. Try shortening your steering lines to compensate for the long bar throw. Then you can sheet in the depower comeasurately and fly it that way. Have fun this winter!

Thanks for the help! I think it is mostly due to the fact I am a newbie and have not flown it enough. The first time I brought it out the lines were fine. I was just dumb this time.

[Futahaguro]

Bar throw is really long on these, but I use the Ozone "Access SB" harness which keeps the hook very low and gives me access to the entire range of depower.

I owned an HQ 7.5m Apex II and sold it. Mostly because it was redundant in my quiver. But I can say that I was never happy with its back stall issues. I use the term BACKSTALL in place of SHEETING THE KITE WRONG, which means either pulling in on the bar too much or letting out on the bar too much when trying to get power out of the kite. SHEETING THE KITE WRONG or BACKSTALL is ultimately a kiter error and not a kite shortcoming, though some kites are easier for the kiter to sheet the kite wrong. Thus it is common to say that a kite that requires more sheeting angle attention has bad backstall.

Maybe I can adjust my Dakine harness to drop the spreader bar a bit. It looks like I should be able to. The sheeting issue is definitely kiter error in this instance:) This is how I figured out that having it unhooked with tight brake lines was the problem.

For your Apex II, you would definitely need to set the depower so that the angle of attack (AOA) is just right at the part of the window where you would unhook. This kite may even require pigtail extensions to accomplish this. For general flying there is no forgiveness with this kite for some one who does not know how to use the bar to trim the AOA on the fly according to the variables such as kite speed, apparent wind, kite acceleration (deceleration), location in the window and so forth. If you can not handle this, inflatables are the best alternative because you really do not have to precisely change the AOA via the bar according to those variables. Inflatables, due to their LEI only support, allow some automatic non kiter controlled sheeting n(canopy distortion). Thus you can fly an inflatable wrong and still have it pull you around, just not at peak efficiency. Foils, with 100% support of the entire canopy from front to back with the bridles, require you to sheet them properly at all times. Though this is counter intuitive, foils actually have a more rigid shape while flying than inflatables. This leads to inflatables being just plain easier to fly for someone who does not understand these concepts or thinks that you do not need to exploit proper sheeting angle at all times with both types of kites. Precise/proper sheeting angle is a must for foils and a huge plus if you can apply that to inflatables also.

Eh, I would rather learn at the moment than spend more money:) This was my first time flying an foil kite and my second time flying any power kite so needless to say, I've got some lernin' to do.

With your 10m Apex II, however, you will learn the advanced concepts of depower kites that most tube kite fliers never really grasp. With a super forgiving kite, inflatable users never really get the full range of power and upwind/downwind capabilities that you will get from flying and understanding your Apex II.

After selling my 7.5 Apex II, I purchased a 3m Apex III. I thought that HQ would have solved the back stall issue by adding another set of pulleys, but they did not. Still, my 3m Apex III is the best teaching kite I could possibly own. I like to let tube kiters fly it and wait for them to say "the bar works backwards on this kite". Once they stumble upon that, I go into the explanation of how an airplane wing stalls at the wrong angle of attack, or how tell-tails work on a catamaran sail. Disbelief is usually what I encounter when I basically tell them that they have been flying their tube kites wrong. Then, after a few water sessions, they come up to me and say that they now "understand" and were always killing the power in the kite by sheeting it in too much.

That was exactly my thought. Of the little flying I did and the reading of forums it does seemed to me to be backwards as well but I am sure I will figure that out. When I did have it cooking a little bit I could feel the power build when I sheeted(?) in coming across the power zone. I made sure to do this low in the zone because when it was high I could feel the possibility of lifting myself off of the ground:) If I had 2 feet of powder it may be fun but on a frozen lake, not so much.

The HQ Montana series, of which I have experience with the "Montana V" and "Montana VI", is a more advanced kite but actually is more forgiving on the backstall issue. The Matrixx series is comparable to the Montana overall in backstall but has a little quirk on the bar that has me completely baffled on the first 2-3 sessions when coming from my inflatables at the end of the water season. After those first few sessions at the beginning of the season I am set and have nothing but great things to say about my Matrixx's. And I love the performance of the Matrixx and Montana's over my old Ozone's.

With the Apex IV, I am hoping that HQ has finally come out with a kite that will please beginners who want forgiveness and do not really care about learning the intricacies as much. So I am actually hoping that the new Apex's are more like the dumbed down Ozone "Access" series of kites. That said, every snowkiter out there who has mastered the Apex II's or III's has more precision sheeting angle skill than any "tubie only" kiter will ever achieve.

Thanks a lot for the long, imformative post! I am sure once I get some flying under my belt things will make more sense. At least I know how to snowboard well so once I put that on my feet it is not another thing I need to learn;)

[Matt V]

Regardless of the academic advice I and others will give you, you will eventually figure it out on your own by using the kite. Your kite, while frustrating at first, will make you a much better kiter very quickly. This is because you will gain an instinctual feel for what is right since you cannot fly your kite wrong. Stick with it and resist the temptation to go back to an inflatable or a forgiving foil.

For more academics, get out on a catamaran with tell-tails this summer. Watch what happens to the airflow over the leeward and windward sides when the sail has smooth flow over it or when one side has turbulent (stalled) flow over it. You can also sometimes feel the increase in speed on a catamaran when you see the tell-tails both go straight, indicating proper airflow. In the following vid, the red tell-tail is on the opposite side of the sail and visible through the clear view port.

http://www.gosailing.info/Tell%20Tails% ... imming.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnOO5Z0zOfs

The vid may not make too much sense until you read and understand the following a bit. Keep in mind that a foil needs to have "Steady Flow at 6 degrees" and can loose all power or stall at the "15 degree point" because it relies on steady flow for maximum inflation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_%28flight%29

For some parting advice, I have and still find that a bit of light wind foil kite flying can make a huge difference. Try to take your kite out on a 6mph day someplace where you can easily run backwards to start the kite. If you can keep the kite up by learning to sheet out a stalled kite on a day like this, you will gain the instinct to recover any stalled kite - inflatable or foil.

[speedsailor93]

Just wanted to add a few comments as I fly both LEI & foils year round.

I always carry an ice screw and it has saved me a couple of times in high wind situations when I have had to land & pack up. No safety issue at all once the kite is attached to the ice screw. When sailing mine is strapped along the top of my harness hook where it is easy to get to and does not stick in me in a fall. They do hurt if you land on them - I tested this.

So far this winter I have only used my 11m Ozone Frenzy foil and checking with my wind meter I can ride fine in 6 - 20mph range with this and manage some higher gusts like today without switching to a smaller kite. I struggled with my 12m or 14m LEI kites in lower winds, say 6-9 mph, and even when I can launch and get some apparant wind going they would fall out of the sky if I hit a lull. I can launch the Frenzy in 6mph, cycle it to get some speed and then it is great. The light weight of the kite seems to help it stay in the air if you hit a lull. Many days seem to have had lighter winds this winter so far but they have still been good kiting. I agree that it takes more kite finess to get the foil working well but I feel it is worth the effort especially in marginal winds. If you pack up the kite carefully it is very fast to launch next time around which I really like especially when it is very cold. I leave my kite in the backpack, unwrap the lines which I keep attached to the bridles all the time, anchor the safety to the ice screw, take the kite out of the bag and position it ready to launch and then hook in and go. Treat it just like a parachute.....never let anybody else pack it or else you do not know how it will come out of the bag !

[Matt V]

I will say that tube kites are the best option for high wind for the exact reason that I said before. Due to their "auto sheeting" along the leech (trailing edge) and lack of support through the center of the canopy, they just can handle major gusts better. This may not apply to the old style C-kites.

Tubie proponents like to say that a tube kite is lighter since it does not contain the weight of all of the air in the cells. And this is true for acceleration, evident by a tubie flying faster to the edge of the window from the back of the window. But in light winds with major lulls, updrafts, downdrafts, and wind shifts, a tube kite will be very difficult to keep from falling to the ground. This is because they have no displacement.

Think of it this way, if you put just one little puff in to a balloon, it will have less mass than a balloon that you fully inflate. If you drop the two at the same time in air (not in a vacuum), the less massive one will hit the ground first. Why? Because of displacement. Think of it as "float" in the air.

For me I exploit this property of the higher displacement foils to kite in tighter areas that I would never take an inflatable into. If you need to rely on the kite staying up, or recovering from an "oh s--t" lull, a foil has a much greater likely hood of staying up. Most of these places that I use this property should just not be kited, and I have paid the price before. But the properties of a foil have allowed me to push it and I have had some great days just upwind of obstacles that you should not kite around.

For closed cell foils, this ability to stay up is doubled since you have a semi-rigid shape and tons of displacement. Hence I use the Matrixx series in tighter spots than I would even use my Montana's.

[slopecat]

Just wanted to add a few comments as I fly both LEI & foils year round.

I always carry an ice screw and it has saved me a couple of times in high wind situations when I have had to land & pack up. No safety issue at all once the kite is attached to the ice screw.

I leave my kite in the backpack, unwrap the lines which I keep attached to the bridles all the time, anchor the safety to the ice screw...

Could you provide more detail on what you anchor to the ice screw? What parts of bar/line/safety sytem do you connect??

Yesterday I was flying a 10m frenzy and felt the need to stop and connect to a screw to wait for the wind to drop a bit. I did just that and took a very long break. At least 30 minutes. I didn't expect it to be that long so I had my hands on the bar and I was ready for relaunch much of the time. I was probably looking stupid after the first few minutes. No problems. After riding back to the launch area I stopped and landed the kite. It ended up inverted - which is how it landed earlier. I anchored an ice screw, removed my chicken loop from my harness and attached it to the screw. I took off my skis, turned to look behind me and boom. The kite flipped itself to upright, powered up, launched and snapped the line from the chicken loop that goes through the bar. Kite and lines are now free and going downwind. All in just a few seconds.

If I did something wrong here, what is considered the proper procedure, what should I be doing?

If my kite was on the ground right-side up I would have attached the brake line to the ice screw. Since it was inverted my thinking was having tension on the brake might make it more likely to launch inverted.

Mike

[MK]

Tell-tails would make us all better sailors. The sport relies so much on feeling. A gauge on the bar for bar pressure and tell-tail sensors (strategicly placed somewhere) would expedite the learning curve for finding the right power. It's all a grand discovery of finding your ride. LEI's and foil's both work and both have pros/cons. For the general enthusiast, non-competition grade kiter, arguably most of us, nothing beats time under the canopy. Glad you are making time for it Eric. Recall it is better to be ignorant for 5 minutes than a life time so don't hesitate to grab me next time I'm around. Verifying your gear is set is key to kiting another day.

The light winds have been fantastic for getting a lot of us out. I've pushed the envelope on the lower wind range of my pumped up kites several times this winter. I realize how focused I am on the available power, apparent wind, edging angle and steering timing - so fun!

Very educational Matt!

[Futahaguro]

...The kite flipped itself to upright, powered up, launched and snapped the line from the chicken loop that goes through the bar. Kite and lines are now free and going downwind. All in just a few seconds.

If I did something wrong here, what is considered the proper procedure, what should I be doing?

If my kite was on the ground right-side up I would have attached the brake line to the ice screw. Since it was inverted my thinking was having tension on the brake might make it more likely to launch inverted.

Mike

I was thinking of the exact circumstance in my mind! I wonder if the brakes are applied enough it won't even launch in reverse. However, I was thinking that the best way to anchor it would be to pull the top hat and release the front lines completely. I did that to make sure I knew how it worked and the front lines went flying. They were really easy to put back into the top hat to fly it again. I would think that would be a surefire way to make sure it doesn't fly away:)

MK - Thanks for the support. I don't want to bother you until I am totally confused or think I might put me or someone else in danger:)

[enderbeanz]

Ouch...snapping your depower line is certainly not good. I'd like to address the use of ice screws or any fixed point for anchoring a kite. It has been said numerous times on this forum before that fixing a rigged kite to any object that has no give to it can be very dangerous because there is no way to relieve tension on the system, and things could break. As you experienced. When you are hooked in and riding you are a fixed point, but if a big puff comes you can spill that energy by not only sheeting out, but riding/sliding/or being dragged down wind.

I also use an ice screw to self launch and anchor the kite after I land. I place a carabineer in the eye of the ice screw which I connect to a sling (cord or webbing) and put another carabineer on the end of that. The chicken loop goes in the second carabineer. I use this set up because the screw is usually too close to the ice to hook and unhook the chicken loop to it. The sling gives you room to work and the rounded edges of a carabineer are less of a risk to your chicken loop than the eye of the ice screw, but I don't ride with all of that on my harness I just leave it in the ice with my bag attached so I can find it again.

I fly an inflatable so when I self launch I pick up the kite and walk it over to the edge of the wind window and let it sit there on its wing tip. I have never had it power up and fly off or fall back down once I put it up. This is very similar to what you would do if you were taking a break and let your kite sit at the edge of the window.

When I self land I use the frontline safety system and attach the flagging line to the sling after I pull it. Then I unhook, grab my kite, flip it over, secure with snow, and reset the bar before I pack up.

I used to ride a 7m foil when I was learning to kite and I was sick of the kite powering up in the situations I just described above. For one a foil can’t sit on its wing tip very well at the edge of the window waiting for you. So that method is out. Second there is always the potential of a reverse relaunch with a foil no matter how hard the brake is on. I have seen people rigging foils with a screw and watched as their foils powered and depowered over and over again bouncing off the ice and sometimes going into bowtied death spirals. SCARY. The chances of this happening with a LEI are slim in the leading edge is down. The kite will likely just move towards one edge of the window or the other, but they don't reverse relaunch unless you are trying to do so intentionally.

Bottom line...a srew is still a good idea when you rig, with the following considerations. For a foil, snow is usually good enough to keep the kite down while you get into your harness and put your board or skis on. When you land I would recommend pulling the safety system to depower the kite. Ozone has a really nice safety system on their center lines so only the brake lines are still connected and the kite falls from the sky with no power. After pulling this then I'd fix the chicken loop to a screw. I think these foil safteies are fairly easy to reset and ride again if you were just taking a break. Not sure what kind of system the HQ kites have though.

Remember, as long a kite still has all four lines attached in some way, it can still power up. This ability only becomes lessened when kites are flagged onto one or two lines.

[Futahaguro]

Great thread!

Enderbeanz - Nice info! In my very limited flying it seemed like the 9M LEI I flew with Mike K was really easy to hold it at the edge of the window. That is what I did when I was waiting for Mike to get me with the snowmobile because I couldn't get it to land on the ground:) I just wasn't pulling the back line far and hard enough to get it to sit down. However, in the other limited flying of the HQ it didn't seem nearly as happy to hang at the edge of the window. Now, the is probably because I don't know what I am doing and have a lot to learn. But I digress. Thanks for talking about the brakes on the foils. I am going to make it a habit to pull the top hat on my HQ, yes it is very easy to re-attach, when I am setting up or packing up/staking.

Any tips on setting up a fixed bridle Samurai II 5M? The snow is limited on the lakes and with 10MPH winds at Medicine Lake my Apex wanted to dump the snow I had on it. With more wind I feel like the Samurai will REALLY want to pop up and dump the snow. There is no top hat on my bar to release the front lines, which is why I want an Ozone Turbo Bar, so that is out of the question. I guess I will have to put on full brakes on a stake with the kite in the bag and the lines out and then take it out of the bag and put some snow on it?

Thanks.