Ok...wanted to get some opinions on an upcoming kite purchase. I am a beginner that has been in the sport for a couple of months now. I feel comfortable with the kite on the lake and think I am ready to move up to a larger kite, problem is that I'm not sure what size to look at and whether to go with an inflatable or a foil for my second kite.
Here is what I think I need (please feel free to insert comments and thoughts). By the way, I'm 5'10" about 180.
At the moment I'm leaning towards an inflatable kite that I can use for the rest of the winter (I'm thinking that there are about 1 1/2 more months of kitable lake left) and then use on the water to learn with. I was thinking that a 9 meter would probably be the right size for this, but I'm not sure. What did everyone out there use for their first 5+ meter kite to learn with (on snow/water)?
I'm hoping to fly a Frenzy 7.5 sometime soon to get an idea as far as the kind of power I can get from a larger kite. My impression is that a 7M or so is a good size foil to move into after learning with something smaller. I've also been told that Foils generally have slightly more power than an equally sized inflatable, hence my thought that a 9.5 might be the right size for most of our wind conditions. But I'm just going on what I've read and spoken to people about - I do not have any experience flying bigger kites.
Any good thoughts or ideas out there?
Thanks in advance!
Michael F
New Kite
Moderator: MK
I was definately thinking of an inflatable for the water (couldn't even imagine attempting to relaunch a foil on the water...can it even be easily done?).
So it sounds like maybe the 9 meter is to small...a 12 might be the right size for learning on the water. How well will that work on the snow? Is it something that I will be able to jump with (on the snow)?
So it sounds like maybe the 9 meter is to small...a 12 might be the right size for learning on the water. How well will that work on the snow? Is it something that I will be able to jump with (on the snow)?
Do you windsurf too? That was my reason for not using my 12M. I was about 200lbs last summer and when it got windy enough for me to windsurf, 15-25mph range, I did that. The Toro 16M worked great for me with a bigger board (Airush Switch 180cm) in 12-20mph
You are lighter and I would imagine a 12M should get you going back and forth in about 12-15mph with a big board. I would suggest getting a big board to start with that you might keep as a light wind board if you like kiting. You should be able to find lots of folks with them for sale on this message board.
It has been suggested to me that starting off with a smaller kite and a bigger board makes learing easier. You would need to decide if a 12M is your "small" kite.
Matt K on the message board got 2 kites last year I belive a 9 and a 14M He also is about 160lbs. He kitesnowboarded last winter and was on the water last summer. He might be able to tell you more about how a 9M would work.
The other guys with experince could help you too. You might want to try a lesson on the water. The guy or girl that gives the lesson should have a kite for you to try so you could check out the sizing.
have fun!
You are lighter and I would imagine a 12M should get you going back and forth in about 12-15mph with a big board. I would suggest getting a big board to start with that you might keep as a light wind board if you like kiting. You should be able to find lots of folks with them for sale on this message board.
It has been suggested to me that starting off with a smaller kite and a bigger board makes learing easier. You would need to decide if a 12M is your "small" kite.
Matt K on the message board got 2 kites last year I belive a 9 and a 14M He also is about 160lbs. He kitesnowboarded last winter and was on the water last summer. He might be able to tell you more about how a 9M would work.
The other guys with experince could help you too. You might want to try a lesson on the water. The guy or girl that gives the lesson should have a kite for you to try so you could check out the sizing.
have fun!
This is a reasonable deal. I agree with Eric, a 12m inflatable is a good first water kite for lighter wind conditions. The 2002 Toro was a great kite! The 16 will get you more time on the water. If the kites are in good condition and there is little to no damage on the leading edge bladder, and you get a set of lines and a bar you'll have to look hard to beat that price. Plus, because you're buying from someone in town, your kind of helping out the whole "scene".Eric S wrote:Use an inflatabe for water here. I have a Toro 12M (new) and 16M (used) for sale. a 12M would probably be good for a first water kite although once you get comfortable you will spend most of you time on a 16M in MN.
I'll sell both for $1400
You don't necessarily need to start on the water with a directional, but if you can borrow one or get one cheap from someone, it will help you master your kite skills before you let loose on a high performance board.
My first kite was a Wipika Free Air 8.9 (equiv to naish 12) and a huge directional. I took that in a huge wind range because the directional was so floaty. The next board I purchased was a Drake, which is a nice step from the directional.
Later,
Jeff
Ok, so it definately sounds like a 12M (or equivalent power) is about the right thing to learn on for a beginner in the water. Unfortunately I don't think I can drop the $1400 for both of those kites, but would you be interested in selling just the 12?
It also sounds like another thing I need to be concerned about is the board...I was thinking that as a beginner I would want a bidirectional board. My thought here was that it is going to be fairly hard to get up on the board itself my first few times out, so if I take direction out of the equation I may be able to ease the learning curve slightly.
Sounds like that conclusion may be wrong though...is it just that they do not make large floaty bidirectionals? Or are bidirectionals considered a more high performance board and hence not for the beginner?
Thanks again for everyone's help!
Michael F
It also sounds like another thing I need to be concerned about is the board...I was thinking that as a beginner I would want a bidirectional board. My thought here was that it is going to be fairly hard to get up on the board itself my first few times out, so if I take direction out of the equation I may be able to ease the learning curve slightly.
Sounds like that conclusion may be wrong though...is it just that they do not make large floaty bidirectionals? Or are bidirectionals considered a more high performance board and hence not for the beginner?
Thanks again for everyone's help!
Michael F
Of course... http://www.lakawa.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=27foxx0171 wrote:Ok, so it definately sounds like a 12M (or equivalent power) is about the right thing to learn on for a beginner in the water. Unfortunately I don't think I can drop the $1400 for both of those kites, but would you be interested in selling just the 12?
You had a question about big bi-directional boards. I purchased an Airush Switch 180 last winter and used it on the water. Some of the local experts were saying "That rail is not RAZOR thin, it's to big, you will not like it."
I liked it a lot. http://www.downhaul.com/kites/020602/im ... 020014.jpg
It's 37L thats a lot for a kiteboard. I don't think the "forked" ends do anything for performance, in fact, they are probably dangerous if you are using a board leash.
My favorite thing to do with this board is ride the onshore waves on the north side of Mille Lacs. With the extra float you can stomp the wave face and get going without using so much kite.
Tip: I bought this board for $350 new (year old stock). Don't spend much more on a current modle. Spend the savings on a current kite.
Last edited by Eric S on Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Shoot, since i rode the 16M toro today in low wind, I think I'll withdraw my selling of my 12M Toro. It might be worth 900 now.... Not to say that you can't buy one for this price but that it is such a great kite.
LATER! ;-)
LATER! ;-)
Last edited by Eric S on Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Oh, I see how it is! Tease the beginner with thoughts of a good deal, a kite that will work well for most wind and then say how awesome it was today (since you know he doesn't have a kite that will allow him to have nearly as much fun as you had today). On top of that, you retract the offer!
I think there is something very, very wrong with that!
Thanks for the input though Eric, I appreciate the help.
Enjoy the wind,
Michael
I think there is something very, very wrong with that!
Thanks for the input though Eric, I appreciate the help.
Enjoy the wind,
Michael
Hehe, first of all, DONT BUY MY KITES!
If you are reading into this thread this far, you might be daft!!!
On the other hand....
Check this out:
Sorry Michael, I was half kidding and half not...
Here's a hint; You might very well be able to purchase the kites I have
advertised at the same or less than my price. Do your self a favor and
look around! I'll not be offended if you find one elsewhere.
Here's the scoop:
Before today I had no intention of taking the Toros out on the snow. The 12M I have has never left the bag. I'm not even exactly sure what color it is :shock!:
I was out on School Section lake today in Kimball, MN. I arrived at 9AM. Some ice fisherman were comming off the ice. The wind was about 10mph or so. I figured I'd rig my 9.5 Psycho and give it a go.
I was able to go back and forth ok. No jumps and not much fun for me. My legs are already shot from the last few days on the snow. It's fun to learn how to fly the Psycho in light wind (It's not a great light wind kite) but after you figure it out, it's just a lot of work waiting for the odd puff of wind to keep you moving.
NOTE: The Psycho likes a lot of wind to 'come alive'. Under about 15mph on the snow it's OK but when it starts to get over that, hold your helment! It gets more stable and predictable in these winds. You can jump like a mad man too. I'm starting to understand what others are saying about the kite (high wind). I'm out on the 9.5 when others are powered on 5M foils. It feels right.
OK, back to the fishemen comming off the ice. I was deriging the Psycho and decided to try the 16M Toro since I brought it along. The fishermen walked with me off the ice and said in usual windsurfer fashion, "You should have been here an hour ago. It was really windy!"
I rigged up the 16M Toro and self launched in about 10mph. I was shocked! That kite has the best manors of any kite I've flown. It turns circles around the Psycho and has way more low end 'grunt'. It's a light wind machine on the snow. The bar pressure needed to turn the kite is about 3 times less than the Psycho. I turns faster than any foil I've flow except my 3.3 Blade.
Also, the kite can just sit on the edge of the window forever while you talk, have a smoke or put your bindings on... It's sick. I was riding with Jerry and Jeff and they were on Mosquito 7.5 foils. I noticed that they were able to head slightly higher than me. I know that the Psycho heads higher than the Toro. This is not a problem for me, I'd rather have to work at making best upwind progress rather than working hard to have fun.
I have put about 25hrs on the Psycho. It's a great kite. Easy to self land and launch. Lots of jumping power in moderate winds (15+mph). Landings are butter smooth. However, I would not call it a fun kite. It's a kite with an attitude.
Here's how I'd compare the two kites in plain language:
Psycho 9.5:
Have you ever had a girlfriend that really pissed you off. You said that you will never call her again. You think, no, you are sure that life will be better without her around. She is a dog!
RING...
She is on the phone. She forgives you and is comming over to make up. Suddenly the guy that just cut you off in traffic is a funny guy . You don't mind about paying Income Tax. All is good in the world because SHE LOVES YOU. You are on top of the world!!! Oh, oh, she's not coming over?!... Life sucks... it's a drag... That's the Psycho 9.5
If you can get through the low spots you will love the high ones!
North Toro 16M:
The Yellow Lab of kites.
When you first get a puppy there is nothing the puppy can do to piss you off. It's sort of like an early girlfriend in that way. If a puppy poops on your carpet you make an excuse. If your girlfriend poops on your carpet, after a few months of knowing each other, you might toss her out onto the street.
When the North Toro 16M misbehaves, there is a REASON for it. YOU did somthing WRONG. Not the kite. The Toro is logical, the Psycho is, well..., PSYCHO.
That is how I've been lead to belive what dogs are like. They love you no matter how stupid you are. You are the stupid one, not the dog.
That's how it feels to fly a North Toro 16M
OK Michael, If you've been reading this far, I'll adjust my price on the 12M to 750, 50 dollars less than posted. I did't mean to tweak you, and reading back on some of the post on this thread, I might have. This deal only applies to you; bar,bag,lines,kite,pump,etc...
I only added to this thread because I was so stoked on how the 16M Toro worked. I now have to figure out how to get rid of my foils!!!!! (just kidding again)
Eric S
If you are reading into this thread this far, you might be daft!!!
On the other hand....
Check this out:
Sorry Michael, I was half kidding and half not...
Here's a hint; You might very well be able to purchase the kites I have
advertised at the same or less than my price. Do your self a favor and
look around! I'll not be offended if you find one elsewhere.
Here's the scoop:
Before today I had no intention of taking the Toros out on the snow. The 12M I have has never left the bag. I'm not even exactly sure what color it is :shock!:
I was out on School Section lake today in Kimball, MN. I arrived at 9AM. Some ice fisherman were comming off the ice. The wind was about 10mph or so. I figured I'd rig my 9.5 Psycho and give it a go.
I was able to go back and forth ok. No jumps and not much fun for me. My legs are already shot from the last few days on the snow. It's fun to learn how to fly the Psycho in light wind (It's not a great light wind kite) but after you figure it out, it's just a lot of work waiting for the odd puff of wind to keep you moving.
NOTE: The Psycho likes a lot of wind to 'come alive'. Under about 15mph on the snow it's OK but when it starts to get over that, hold your helment! It gets more stable and predictable in these winds. You can jump like a mad man too. I'm starting to understand what others are saying about the kite (high wind). I'm out on the 9.5 when others are powered on 5M foils. It feels right.
OK, back to the fishemen comming off the ice. I was deriging the Psycho and decided to try the 16M Toro since I brought it along. The fishermen walked with me off the ice and said in usual windsurfer fashion, "You should have been here an hour ago. It was really windy!"
I rigged up the 16M Toro and self launched in about 10mph. I was shocked! That kite has the best manors of any kite I've flown. It turns circles around the Psycho and has way more low end 'grunt'. It's a light wind machine on the snow. The bar pressure needed to turn the kite is about 3 times less than the Psycho. I turns faster than any foil I've flow except my 3.3 Blade.
Also, the kite can just sit on the edge of the window forever while you talk, have a smoke or put your bindings on... It's sick. I was riding with Jerry and Jeff and they were on Mosquito 7.5 foils. I noticed that they were able to head slightly higher than me. I know that the Psycho heads higher than the Toro. This is not a problem for me, I'd rather have to work at making best upwind progress rather than working hard to have fun.
I have put about 25hrs on the Psycho. It's a great kite. Easy to self land and launch. Lots of jumping power in moderate winds (15+mph). Landings are butter smooth. However, I would not call it a fun kite. It's a kite with an attitude.
Here's how I'd compare the two kites in plain language:
Psycho 9.5:
Have you ever had a girlfriend that really pissed you off. You said that you will never call her again. You think, no, you are sure that life will be better without her around. She is a dog!
RING...
She is on the phone. She forgives you and is comming over to make up. Suddenly the guy that just cut you off in traffic is a funny guy . You don't mind about paying Income Tax. All is good in the world because SHE LOVES YOU. You are on top of the world!!! Oh, oh, she's not coming over?!... Life sucks... it's a drag... That's the Psycho 9.5
If you can get through the low spots you will love the high ones!
North Toro 16M:
The Yellow Lab of kites.
When you first get a puppy there is nothing the puppy can do to piss you off. It's sort of like an early girlfriend in that way. If a puppy poops on your carpet you make an excuse. If your girlfriend poops on your carpet, after a few months of knowing each other, you might toss her out onto the street.
When the North Toro 16M misbehaves, there is a REASON for it. YOU did somthing WRONG. Not the kite. The Toro is logical, the Psycho is, well..., PSYCHO.
That is how I've been lead to belive what dogs are like. They love you no matter how stupid you are. You are the stupid one, not the dog.
That's how it feels to fly a North Toro 16M
OK Michael, If you've been reading this far, I'll adjust my price on the 12M to 750, 50 dollars less than posted. I did't mean to tweak you, and reading back on some of the post on this thread, I might have. This deal only applies to you; bar,bag,lines,kite,pump,etc...
I only added to this thread because I was so stoked on how the 16M Toro worked. I now have to figure out how to get rid of my foils!!!!! (just kidding again)
Eric S
foxx0171 wrote:Oh, I see how it is! Tease the beginner with thoughts of a good deal, a kite that will work well for most wind and then say how awesome it was today (since you know he doesn't have a kite that will allow him to have nearly as much fun as you had today). On top of that, you retract the offer!
I think there is something very, very wrong with that! :)
Thanks for the input though Eric, I appreciate the help.
Enjoy the wind,
Michael
Last edited by Eric S on Sun Feb 02, 2003 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Eric,
Didn't tweak me at all...I was laughing after your first reply - figured if you liked the kite that much then it was probably worth keeping! I would imagine that it is going to be hard to get on the ice without thinking of bringing the Toro out.
That last narrative was great though...definately language that, being a beginner, gives me the right perspective on what the different kites out there are like.
Thanks for the insight,
Michael
Didn't tweak me at all...I was laughing after your first reply - figured if you liked the kite that much then it was probably worth keeping! I would imagine that it is going to be hard to get on the ice without thinking of bringing the Toro out.
That last narrative was great though...definately language that, being a beginner, gives me the right perspective on what the different kites out there are like.
Thanks for the insight,
Michael
No Chuck, what I think I'm saying is buy an inflatable girlfriend and walk your dog. Fly whatever kite keeps you stoked. :wink:Chuck G. wrote:What I think you're saying is that I should buy a dog, sell my girl friend and fly inflatables?????
Chuck G.
Man, I can't wait to get out on the snow again! The Toro 16M has opened up the whole lightwind thing. It's a snap to relaunch in light wind. Here's my tip:
If the kite is sitting nose down and you can't flip it...
Take your board off
Let the saftey go easy. The bar will slide up the line and the kite will flatten out.
Secure your board in the snow and attach the saftey to it
Walk down to the kite and put snow on the upwind end. More wind, more snow.
Walk back to the bar and slighly pull on it making sure the lines are right. Thread the safty back through the bar (North style)
Now the tricky part; pull on the UP side of the kite and try to make a "C". Give a yank and the snow should fall off the DOWN side of the kite and the kite should launch. If not, start at the top.
Fly the kite.
Hook into your board and go!
I only dropped the kite once. I got caught in a deep drift (stalled) and let the kite shoot all the way to the edge of the window. the wind was about 5mph then and I couldn't keep it up. I landed it nose down and went throught the proceedure mentioned above.
I'm up looking at the forcasts for sunday. It's not looking good for getting out and having fun.
Buy that kite...
Eric,
Offer for the Toro 12 still out? I'd love to get that from you this weekend...
Michael
Offer for the Toro 12 still out? I'd love to get that from you this weekend...
Michael
Eric,
I just wanted to say that I loved your description of the Psycho and Toro. I have never flown a Toro, and the Psycho is the best kite I have ever flown. I feel like I totally understand how a Toro would fly. After knowing how the Psycho flies I think your right on and that's what I love about it. Thanks for the comparison, and the laugh.
-Stone
I just wanted to say that I loved your description of the Psycho and Toro. I have never flown a Toro, and the Psycho is the best kite I have ever flown. I feel like I totally understand how a Toro would fly. After knowing how the Psycho flies I think your right on and that's what I love about it. Thanks for the comparison, and the laugh.
-Stone
I don't care what time it is; anytime anybody wants to go kiteboarding and wants company, call me on my cell 808-780-5824.