Guys,
Had my first sesh on a snowboard today and it was really fun. I need to make some binding adjustments but that shouldn't be a big deal.
My questions are as follows...
1. What do you all thing about stiffer vs softer snowboarding boots?
2. My boots also have a slight forward lean to them almost like a ski boot but not as extreme, is this a standard thing for snowboarding boots or does it vary from model to model/brand to brand?
3. The bindings I'm riding also have that same slightly forward lean, is this standard or does it vary from model to model/brand to brand?
I'm trying to get as close as I can to the feel of being on water.
? About snowboarding boots/bindings
Moderator: MK
Re: ? About snowboarding boots/bindings
The closer to a water feel you get, the easier it will be to kite for a long period of time on a snowboard. Softer in the entire "boot to binding" system will help you achieve this.
1. Softer is better for snowboard boots overall. Snowboard boots are designed to be stiff because of the upright/weight forward stance you take on a hill. This allows you to move your weight heel side to toe side while gravity is putting force straight down on the board and you are standing directly over it. The actual dynamics are a bit more complicated, especially when you factor in centripetal force while carving, but this simplification is a good basis for comparison to kiting.
In kiting, the kite is adding a horizontal component (force) to the "vertical only" gravitational force normally experienced on the hill. This means that you lean back/out and your body is actually out (windward side of the board) over the ground, not over the board. In this position, most stiff snowboard boots force your lower leg to be in one orientation to the board. If you want to move your body's center of mass out from the position, you have to really squat down. This lower squat tires out your quadriceps quickly. If you have a boot and binding with more flex, your lower leg has more mobility to lean back and eliminate the low squatting position. Thus by being able to stand more upright, your quadriceps will last longer. Other factors can play a part in how much you squat. On a recent trip to Clear Lake, SD, all 3 of us snowboarders noted that we had burned out legs within 15 minutes. This was most likely due to being unsure of snow and wind conditions. A lower body position can feel safer for gusts or poor snow quality. After we became used to the conditions, our stance naturally straightened up and we were able to kite all day.
But generally, in soft snow, you will take much more of a "weight back (and out)" stance. This stance mimics the way you straighten out your front leg, and bend your back leg, with a twin-tip kiteboard on the water when water starting. Unfortunately with a snowboard, you cannot bend your ankle to adjust the angle of the board to the water because of the rigid snowboard binding/boot system. You may notice that powder fries your quads quicker than hard pack. On hard pack or iced over snow, you can take a much more "hill like" stance with your weight more forward. I have even noticed that on rough ice or ice glazed over snow, I can take a much more severe "forward lean" while kiting than when I am carving on the hill. Powder, on the other hand, requires a back weighted low stance to fight two things. The first is "nosing" in the board. This is stopped by moving your weight over the back foot. The second is catching the toe side edge. This is prevented by moving the weight out to the windward side of the board and angling the board so the toes are higher than the heel. In the end, it matters more about your snow conditions than anything else.
2. The forward lean on your boots will vary from mfg to mfg and will be different from model to model. Don't worry too much about this. Just because they look like they have a severe lean forward to them, does not mean they will hold you there. The pictures online are rarely an accurate depiction of angles. Focus more on the boot flex rating. The cheaper boots will flex much past any visual reference in pictures, making them more comfortable to ride in a back weighted kite stance. More expensive stiffer boots will hold that forward lean rigidly, thus tiring your legs more while kiting. Again, soft conditions warrant the back weighted stance which will be more tiring in stiff forward leaning boots. The best way to do it is to go cheap and flexy for kiting.
When snowboarding without a kite (at the ski hill) the forward lean to the boot/binding system allows a rigid connection to the board with a near permanent in bend to the knees. Remember that on the hill, you need to have your weight directly over the board. This locked in bend helps with stability since going straight legged (at the knee) will decrease balance. Again, while much more complicated than explained above, some forward lean is essential to snowboard edge control on the hill. But it is not so much so with a kite
3. The forward lean on your binding "high backs" is usually adjustable via a slide stop on the back of them. My original pair had so much adjustment that they would get too loose even with the cheapest and most flexible boots I could buy. This looseness is not obvious by feel, but rather by the snow that packs between the back of your leg (boot) and the "high back". If the high backs are set too loose, they just fill up with packed snow until they become tighter as the packed snow fills the gap. This is precisely how I check my high back adjustment when kiting on a snowboard. If there is snow packing between them and my leg, they need to be tightened (less angle - lean towards toes). If no snow is back there and my quads are burning, then I loosen them until they show some signs of snow build up (more angle closer to 90).
Please keep in mind that you can never, nor do I think you want to, achieve a complete water feel with a snowboard. Bottom line is that the media (snow vs water) is dynamically different. First, there are hundreds of different types of snow vs only 1 type of water (2 if you count denser salt water). And snow is fundamentally different than water in that:
Snow is solid-like substance that you do not become buoyant in (has a floor) where water is a fluid and you sink to a buoyant depth in
Snow compresses where water is incompressible and just moves out of your way
Snow temperature/wax compatibility affect the total friction with the media and is highly variable in a single run where waters friction is only related to speed and is constant anywhere on the lake
All of these things mean that snowboardkiting is not waterkiting and cannot be made into a perfect mirror of the soft water experience. I am actually happy about that since planing speed, and kite power (size vs wind speed) is not critical. This allows a snowkiter to do some tricks and play on features from a static position that would be impossible on the water.
1. Softer is better for snowboard boots overall. Snowboard boots are designed to be stiff because of the upright/weight forward stance you take on a hill. This allows you to move your weight heel side to toe side while gravity is putting force straight down on the board and you are standing directly over it. The actual dynamics are a bit more complicated, especially when you factor in centripetal force while carving, but this simplification is a good basis for comparison to kiting.
In kiting, the kite is adding a horizontal component (force) to the "vertical only" gravitational force normally experienced on the hill. This means that you lean back/out and your body is actually out (windward side of the board) over the ground, not over the board. In this position, most stiff snowboard boots force your lower leg to be in one orientation to the board. If you want to move your body's center of mass out from the position, you have to really squat down. This lower squat tires out your quadriceps quickly. If you have a boot and binding with more flex, your lower leg has more mobility to lean back and eliminate the low squatting position. Thus by being able to stand more upright, your quadriceps will last longer. Other factors can play a part in how much you squat. On a recent trip to Clear Lake, SD, all 3 of us snowboarders noted that we had burned out legs within 15 minutes. This was most likely due to being unsure of snow and wind conditions. A lower body position can feel safer for gusts or poor snow quality. After we became used to the conditions, our stance naturally straightened up and we were able to kite all day.
But generally, in soft snow, you will take much more of a "weight back (and out)" stance. This stance mimics the way you straighten out your front leg, and bend your back leg, with a twin-tip kiteboard on the water when water starting. Unfortunately with a snowboard, you cannot bend your ankle to adjust the angle of the board to the water because of the rigid snowboard binding/boot system. You may notice that powder fries your quads quicker than hard pack. On hard pack or iced over snow, you can take a much more "hill like" stance with your weight more forward. I have even noticed that on rough ice or ice glazed over snow, I can take a much more severe "forward lean" while kiting than when I am carving on the hill. Powder, on the other hand, requires a back weighted low stance to fight two things. The first is "nosing" in the board. This is stopped by moving your weight over the back foot. The second is catching the toe side edge. This is prevented by moving the weight out to the windward side of the board and angling the board so the toes are higher than the heel. In the end, it matters more about your snow conditions than anything else.
2. The forward lean on your boots will vary from mfg to mfg and will be different from model to model. Don't worry too much about this. Just because they look like they have a severe lean forward to them, does not mean they will hold you there. The pictures online are rarely an accurate depiction of angles. Focus more on the boot flex rating. The cheaper boots will flex much past any visual reference in pictures, making them more comfortable to ride in a back weighted kite stance. More expensive stiffer boots will hold that forward lean rigidly, thus tiring your legs more while kiting. Again, soft conditions warrant the back weighted stance which will be more tiring in stiff forward leaning boots. The best way to do it is to go cheap and flexy for kiting.
When snowboarding without a kite (at the ski hill) the forward lean to the boot/binding system allows a rigid connection to the board with a near permanent in bend to the knees. Remember that on the hill, you need to have your weight directly over the board. This locked in bend helps with stability since going straight legged (at the knee) will decrease balance. Again, while much more complicated than explained above, some forward lean is essential to snowboard edge control on the hill. But it is not so much so with a kite
3. The forward lean on your binding "high backs" is usually adjustable via a slide stop on the back of them. My original pair had so much adjustment that they would get too loose even with the cheapest and most flexible boots I could buy. This looseness is not obvious by feel, but rather by the snow that packs between the back of your leg (boot) and the "high back". If the high backs are set too loose, they just fill up with packed snow until they become tighter as the packed snow fills the gap. This is precisely how I check my high back adjustment when kiting on a snowboard. If there is snow packing between them and my leg, they need to be tightened (less angle - lean towards toes). If no snow is back there and my quads are burning, then I loosen them until they show some signs of snow build up (more angle closer to 90).
Please keep in mind that you can never, nor do I think you want to, achieve a complete water feel with a snowboard. Bottom line is that the media (snow vs water) is dynamically different. First, there are hundreds of different types of snow vs only 1 type of water (2 if you count denser salt water). And snow is fundamentally different than water in that:
Snow is solid-like substance that you do not become buoyant in (has a floor) where water is a fluid and you sink to a buoyant depth in
Snow compresses where water is incompressible and just moves out of your way
Snow temperature/wax compatibility affect the total friction with the media and is highly variable in a single run where waters friction is only related to speed and is constant anywhere on the lake
All of these things mean that snowboardkiting is not waterkiting and cannot be made into a perfect mirror of the soft water experience. I am actually happy about that since planing speed, and kite power (size vs wind speed) is not critical. This allows a snowkiter to do some tricks and play on features from a static position that would be impossible on the water.
Re: ? About snowboarding boots/bindings
Dude Matt!
You just dropped some major knowledge on us!!! You just totally described the fatigue I experienced during my first session on a board. Thank for your help!
Chad
You just dropped some major knowledge on us!!! You just totally described the fatigue I experienced during my first session on a board. Thank for your help!
Chad
Re: ? About snowboarding boots/bindings
Matt,
Do you know much about the K2 Hurrithane bindings with a partial poly urethane high back...seems like these would work well for kiting. I'm going to put them up against some flows and see what I like best.
Chad
Do you know much about the K2 Hurrithane bindings with a partial poly urethane high back...seems like these would work well for kiting. I'm going to put them up against some flows and see what I like best.
Chad
Re: ? About snowboarding boots/bindings
Thanks for doing some testing and letting us know! That is what this forum is all about - furthering snowkiting knowledge and making the experience better through sharing.
I bet you could find someone riding these bindings or similar ones out at Fond Du Lac at the Sturgeon Stampede this weekend. I have found that there is much knowledge to be gained out at the meets. But it looks like the "Hurrithane" bindings are listed as being soft to medium which is what you want. Price is right too!
For a comparison to Flows, I would caution you on that. While the Flow "Flights" and "Flight 2's" are super flexible, the more expensive ones have much more stiffness. I use Flow "Trilogy's" on my SwitchBlade board specifically because they have less flex which I feel suits the much more upright stance while riding ice. I even up the stiffness on my CraigsList scored boots too. Though I am no expert with the SwitchBlade, I assume most users like to go with more stiffness on their ice board boot/bindings. Todd would be the guy to ask about that for an expert opinion. But the top end Flows are going to be almost as stiff as high end Burton bindings. So let us know the model you are comparing to.
P.S. I will never buy any other Flow binding besides Flight 2's until they discontinue them.
I bet you could find someone riding these bindings or similar ones out at Fond Du Lac at the Sturgeon Stampede this weekend. I have found that there is much knowledge to be gained out at the meets. But it looks like the "Hurrithane" bindings are listed as being soft to medium which is what you want. Price is right too!
For a comparison to Flows, I would caution you on that. While the Flow "Flights" and "Flight 2's" are super flexible, the more expensive ones have much more stiffness. I use Flow "Trilogy's" on my SwitchBlade board specifically because they have less flex which I feel suits the much more upright stance while riding ice. I even up the stiffness on my CraigsList scored boots too. Though I am no expert with the SwitchBlade, I assume most users like to go with more stiffness on their ice board boot/bindings. Todd would be the guy to ask about that for an expert opinion. But the top end Flows are going to be almost as stiff as high end Burton bindings. So let us know the model you are comparing to.
P.S. I will never buy any other Flow binding besides Flight 2's until they discontinue them.