I recently had a failure of the chicken loop on my brand new Best “Redline Performance Bar”. This occurred on the 8th - 9th time using this bar on August 27th. I had first used the bar around the 1st of August, 1 month earlier. The bar was purchased during the spring of 2011 but high water levels had made it impossible to find a safe launch at that time of year. The failure had nothing to do with the release mechanism itself, but rather the chicken loop line that runs through the release ball attached to the end of the chicken loop. This failure made it impossible to reload the chicken loop and stranded me a half mile from shore in side shore conditions. My kite inverted several times as I was trying to figure out what was wrong and how I could remedy it on the water. Over all I am somewhat thankful that the failure occurred out on the water since it unexpectedly released the kite onto the leash. Once this happened, I had no steering control of the kite. This could have proved disastrous to me, my kite, or some downwind bystanders had this happened at the beach.
Due to Best requiring photos of the situation, me being $120 worth of gas from home without a way to email Best the pictures, and looking at a good wind forecast, I decided to attempt to remedy the situation as well as I could in the field. In the end I wound up purchasing about $100 worth of a Dremel tool and sand paper/accessories. I also had to find some replacement line for the inside of the chicken loop. Once I located some New England “Spyder Line” in the 2.8mm size with a breaking strength of 565kg (1200lbs), I was ready to undertake the task.
http://www.neropes.com/product.aspx?mid ... =3&pid=201
The point of failure occurred at the top of the release ball where the internal line of the chicken loop (the line that carries the load) comes out of one of the holes in the top of the stainless steel release ball then passes back down through the other hole. Since the release cuff was never activated, the ball was thankfully retained inside of the release mechanism for my swim to shore. Examination of the release ball on shore showed that the two holes had not been de-burred, thus the chicken loop load line was passing over a tight bend with sharp edges. In my opinion, failure was imminent regardless of any amount of sand infiltration into the top of the release ball.
If this situation ever happens, which you will recognize by the stainless steel ball no longer being attached to the end of the chicken loop that you insert into the release mechanism, do not open the cuff/tab as you have a good chance of losing the ball rendering the chicken loop impossible to repair. Best warranty service may also not warranty this since you have no proof of what happened. Like I said, they required me to have high res pictures of the burrs at the top of the release ball even though the load line was cut evenly at the top where it passes over the top of the release ball.
HOW I FIXED IT
To get a better idea of the description below, look at the Best “2011 Redline Performance Bar Manual” in the following link. The description of the removal of the chicken loop is on page 10 of the .pdf file.
http://media.bestkiteboarding.com/manua ... manual.pdf
The solution to this problem seemed to be to simply remove the burrs from the top of the release ball holes and put new line in the chicken loop. To do this I used an aluminum oxide grinding tip on the new Dremel and just lightly touched the top sides of the holes on low speed. Serious pressure and long term grinding would have possibly removed too much of the bearing surface of the release ball and possibly weakened the release balls load bearing capacity.
Then I proceeded to hand sand the grinding marks away using 320, 400, and 600 grit sand paper progressively. To get the sand paper to fit in the hole, I wrapped it around a Dremel tool bit shaft, removed the tool bit shaft, and then inserted the tube of sandpaper into the holes and sanded the edges where the burrs had been. This went surprisingly quickly and the holes were smooth at the top in about 20 minutes.
Lastly, I used the Dremel with a felt tip and Dremel’s own polishing compound. On low speed, the polishing compound completely shined the stainless steel up to a mirror finish in less than 5 minutes. I then washed the release ball with soap and water to remove all traces of the abrasive polishing compound from the release ball.
Since the original internal load line of the chicken loop was sewn (with stitches passing through both the tube and the line), I had to rip those seams to get the line out of the tube. I found a pair of scissors that was adequate for the job but a seam ripper will always be in my repair kit from now on.
Once I removed the internal chicken loop load line, I found that this line itself was sewn (no knots) to form the loops that you see externally. This was a problem because I knew that I was not going to want to sew, or trust my sewing (although I had the tools and materials to do it), to make another double loop section like Best uses in this situation. Thus I had to use a knot at the top of the pin that holds the line opposite of the release ball side of the chicken loop. I will not recommend a knot to use at the top of the pin as I do not trust the knot I wound up using. Super lines, even when sheathed with a nylon or polyester outer covering like the New England “Spyder Line” I used, still have a tendency to slip with even the most trusted tried and true knots. In the end, I added some stitching to my knot and I check it regularly to make sure that it is still solidly in place. Right now I am checking it after 10 runs out and back, and with my experience, I am no longer going out into the middle of the lake even with this repair. 300yds from shore is all I am willing to swim from now on. Another subject of note is the concern that some dinghy sailors, who use these super lines almost more extensively than kiters do, are changing out highly loaded super lines regularly. They believe that their super lines will break at any bend in the line specifically because there is little to no stretch in those lines. Thus the super line fibers on the outside of the bend take the entire load while the fibers on the inside of the bend have no load. (This has been confirmed in update # 2). Nylon does not have this property because in typical regular strength nylon lines, the nylon fibers on the outside of the bend tend to stretch and place some of the load on the inside of the bend. If you look at the Best release ball, you will see that you could not get a more severe bend unless you put the line across the edge of a knife. Most of the Amsteel leader lines, or equivalents on a kite bar, have a flattening property that allows them to get all of the fibers close to the inside of the bend and thus possibly not have breakage issues when used on a stainless steel ring as you would expect if this property is true. But my examination of the original Best line seems to indicate that they are using a similar line to the New England “Spyder Line”. It seems somewhat paradoxical that by using something stronger, it is possibly making the system weaker.
CONCLUSION
In the end, I am at least disappointed that Best failed on their quality control. The Best representative has assured my retailer that I am the only incidence of this problem occurring that they have come across since releasing their new “Redline Performance Bar”. I do find this explanation highly suspect since it occurred so quickly with a brand new bar used less than 10 times. I also strongly expressed my concern that Best may have a major “safety/recall” issue with this chicken loop. At most, I have lost confidence in the Best chicken loop and I intend to either replace it with a North chicken loop/release, or sell the bar for parts and purchase another brands bar to use with my Best kites. So far, I can also say that I am fairly disappointed in Best’s customer service.
To Best’s defense, I will say that of all the bar/chicken loop release systems that I have used (North, Ozone, HQ) I find their new “Redline Performance Bar” better than all the others in comfort and ease of use with regards to a properly functioning release. And I truly wish them well and hope they do not have a serious issue with all of their new bars. Prior to my incident, I was happy that Best was producing reasonably priced gear for a sport that typically is “have a kite to put over your head, or, have a roof to put over your head, not both”.
UPDATE # 1
I had another incident with my “Redline Performance” release on September 4th. This time it was a “phantom release” of the chicken loop. I did not intentionally release the kite but upon power up of the kite going into a water start, the chicken loop released unexpectedly. The most likely explanation is that somehow I had accidentally triggered it and 2 kite sessions later I have not had further incidence of this.
I did notice that there was a dent in the release ball that was NOT there when I was performing the deburring of the release ball holes. I am sure of this because of how closely I had to work with that particular part. My theory on this is that the high load unintentional release may be to blame for the dent in the release ball. The only metal that the release ball could have come into contact at high speed with before being re-inserted into the closure would have been the harness bar hook or harness bar ends upon release. Hopefully this denting is not a problem with the release mechanism in the future.
UPDATE # 2
I spoke with Steve from New England Ropes on the morning of September 9, and he confirmed that there is an issue with bend radius vs strength reduction. The bend radius vs diameter required is 10 to 1 for full strength in their proprietary “Spyder Line”. As I am seeing the situation, the bend radius is 1 to 1 or possibly 0 to 1 (due to the 90 degree bend with no radius) over the Best release ball where the breakage is occurring. Thus I believe that it is possible for this particular part to fail even with the de-burring of the burred (unfinished) edges that were present prior to my original failure.
It has also come to my attention that some other users of the brand new “Best Redline Performance bar have had this issue repeatedly occur.
http://forum.bestkiteboarding.com/view ... =9&t=11394
I am hoping Best does the right thing and recalls all of these bars and finds a solution to situation. If they do not step up to the plate, this issue has the potential of causing them some serious litigation and will get us kiters banned from more beaches due to unintentional release accidents.
Anyone else have this issue with their Best “Redline Performance Bar”?
Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Failure
Moderator: MK
Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Failure
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Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
UPDATE # 3
On September 12, I was finally able to reach the Best customer service representative Brian. Our discussion went as I expected though I found him to be somewhat more combative in conversation than I thought was appropriate given a piece of new equipment failing. I will give (and gave) him some leeway in that they have just been through the hurricane on the east coast and he did mention that their new offices were now un-useable. But due to the bits of information that he let slip through about this particular chicken loop issue, I am somewhat even more dissatisfied with Best’s handling of this situation. Toward the end of the conversation, Brian did tell me that the issue has been known to Best because one of the first occurrences happened with a team rider. Apparently the factory that is making these stopper balls (in Asia, not China as Brian corrected me) is responsible for some stopper balls being made without the burrs from the drill holes being removed. Also, these un-finished stopper balls were somehow mixed up with properly finished stopper balls and there appears to be no way to figure out which bars were affected. So early on, in my opinion the Spring of 2011 when I purchased my bar, Best became aware that a defect was present.
In response to my dismay at having gone 2 weeks without anyone saying that I would be shipped a replacement chicken loop, Brian also tried to put some of the blame on my retailer. He stated that my retailer should have shipped out a replacement without question. However, in conversation with the Best representative, it was indicated to my retailer that no free replacement would be given without “highly detailed” pictures showing the burrs on the stopper ball. My retailer had also never come across this defect prior to me. So my retailer was under the impression that there would be no reimbursement if I did not come through with the pictures. But the most important thing Brian let slip through and the facts reflect, is that my retailer who has sold over 50 of these bars since last year, was NEVER notified that he had sold defective merchandise. Thus it appears that Best’s own retailers were kept out of the loop on a potentially disastrous defect. This is extremely more irresponsible than not notifying the kiting public and end users of this bar.
With regards to the detailed picture requirement, Brian said that their manufacture in Asia was trying to deny that there was a defect with these stopper balls. He said that Best has to send photo’s of these defective parts in order to prove to the factory that they are flawed. Typically, when having a foreign manufacture produce “life safety” products, a representative answering only to the client (Best) is on site to assure quality control. This is particularly prevalent in China because of trade agreements that remove all liability from any Chinese manufacture for any product or part they make. With having to prove that there is a defect, I am beginning to question whether or not Best is doing any onsite quality control at their overseas manufactures. I am sure they are doing some with the kite construction, but I would also like to see that done on this critical part. In Best’s defense, Brian assured me that the production line was stopped immediately upon the Best team riders experience with this issue. But again, there was no indication of an attempt to stop end users from using this bar.
I must reiterate my concern to everyone who is using this bar with this potential defect. If you use the Best “Redline Performance Bar” at a narrow beach or anywhere where there are other people on the beach, you may be putting yourself, innocent by standers, and your kite in jeopardy. A failure of this ball stopper will mean that you lose all steering control of the kite while it goes onto the front lines. Though this depowers the kite, it also sets up the kite to become back winded and roll. As most 4 line kiters know, this can put the kite into the back of the wind window and launch it on the other side. And with no way to re-hook in, the kite will not become controllable until it is stopped by someone or something.
Upon the closing of our conversation, Brian assured me that he would send out the replacement chicken loop (not entire release) as soon as I emailed him my address. I am still not happy about having gone through this and the time I have spent looking into the engineering of this part, the $100+ I spent in repairing my part, and in the end only getting another of the same part to worry about some 3 weeks later.
On September 12, I was finally able to reach the Best customer service representative Brian. Our discussion went as I expected though I found him to be somewhat more combative in conversation than I thought was appropriate given a piece of new equipment failing. I will give (and gave) him some leeway in that they have just been through the hurricane on the east coast and he did mention that their new offices were now un-useable. But due to the bits of information that he let slip through about this particular chicken loop issue, I am somewhat even more dissatisfied with Best’s handling of this situation. Toward the end of the conversation, Brian did tell me that the issue has been known to Best because one of the first occurrences happened with a team rider. Apparently the factory that is making these stopper balls (in Asia, not China as Brian corrected me) is responsible for some stopper balls being made without the burrs from the drill holes being removed. Also, these un-finished stopper balls were somehow mixed up with properly finished stopper balls and there appears to be no way to figure out which bars were affected. So early on, in my opinion the Spring of 2011 when I purchased my bar, Best became aware that a defect was present.
In response to my dismay at having gone 2 weeks without anyone saying that I would be shipped a replacement chicken loop, Brian also tried to put some of the blame on my retailer. He stated that my retailer should have shipped out a replacement without question. However, in conversation with the Best representative, it was indicated to my retailer that no free replacement would be given without “highly detailed” pictures showing the burrs on the stopper ball. My retailer had also never come across this defect prior to me. So my retailer was under the impression that there would be no reimbursement if I did not come through with the pictures. But the most important thing Brian let slip through and the facts reflect, is that my retailer who has sold over 50 of these bars since last year, was NEVER notified that he had sold defective merchandise. Thus it appears that Best’s own retailers were kept out of the loop on a potentially disastrous defect. This is extremely more irresponsible than not notifying the kiting public and end users of this bar.
With regards to the detailed picture requirement, Brian said that their manufacture in Asia was trying to deny that there was a defect with these stopper balls. He said that Best has to send photo’s of these defective parts in order to prove to the factory that they are flawed. Typically, when having a foreign manufacture produce “life safety” products, a representative answering only to the client (Best) is on site to assure quality control. This is particularly prevalent in China because of trade agreements that remove all liability from any Chinese manufacture for any product or part they make. With having to prove that there is a defect, I am beginning to question whether or not Best is doing any onsite quality control at their overseas manufactures. I am sure they are doing some with the kite construction, but I would also like to see that done on this critical part. In Best’s defense, Brian assured me that the production line was stopped immediately upon the Best team riders experience with this issue. But again, there was no indication of an attempt to stop end users from using this bar.
I must reiterate my concern to everyone who is using this bar with this potential defect. If you use the Best “Redline Performance Bar” at a narrow beach or anywhere where there are other people on the beach, you may be putting yourself, innocent by standers, and your kite in jeopardy. A failure of this ball stopper will mean that you lose all steering control of the kite while it goes onto the front lines. Though this depowers the kite, it also sets up the kite to become back winded and roll. As most 4 line kiters know, this can put the kite into the back of the wind window and launch it on the other side. And with no way to re-hook in, the kite will not become controllable until it is stopped by someone or something.
Upon the closing of our conversation, Brian assured me that he would send out the replacement chicken loop (not entire release) as soon as I emailed him my address. I am still not happy about having gone through this and the time I have spent looking into the engineering of this part, the $100+ I spent in repairing my part, and in the end only getting another of the same part to worry about some 3 weeks later.
Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
Thanks for the details. I'll contact my rep to become informed. I'm not ready to throw them under the bus and it looks like you have been very patient with them. Timing is critical especially when the wind is blowing. I know of 3 locals who fly with these and I'll investigate to ensure safety.
Mike
Mike
Mike
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cericson01
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Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
Thanks for the information, I will look at my Best Bar and make sure it is. It showing signs of a problem! I have had it for about 9 months without any issues whatsoever.
Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
As per usual a conversation with a single person can be taken completely out of context very easily.
I will start by telling you who I am,
Brian Scall; Customer Service and Warranty Manager worldwide for BEST Kiteboarding.
I handle all warranties for our brand at close to 600 dealers around the world in close to 100 countries. I also work directly with the R&D team to ensure the designers know of ever single issue that arises so that we may track the problem and make sure it gets fixed as quickly as possible.
Now on to Matt and the Redline performance bar issue he experienced.
Background;
Because of hurricane Irene most of our company was forced to evacuate our homes and offices and have not been allowed back until a few days ago. (two weeks) Because of this others in our company stepped up and filled in at positions they do not normally work in full time. Because of that those who were helping were forced to follow set out policies that we have in place. One of those policies is to require a picture of a defect to help us determine a manufacturing fault vs. a users fault. I know it is hard to believe but we daily get people trying to scam us into sending them gear because of something they read on a forum like this. They may not actually be experiencing the issue themselves but they tell us they are so they can get free stuff. On top of that we require a photo so that we can prove to our factories that they did not build a part to our standards. (they require the photos also) As you can imagine once you ask for a picture it quickly weeds out the scammers vs. the people who are having a problem.
So while I was gone Matt talked to his dealer and the dealer followed the proper steps in asking for a picture of the problem. The dealer received this feedback from the person filling in, the exact way he should. Because of no direct knowledge of Matts location or ability to take a photo we would have no way of working with him and a way around an immediate photo only because we were not aware of his situation. Not because we don't want to get him back on the water right away.
As for the statement about saying the dealer should have handled it, well I think the dealer did great with what he was given but I merely suggested that in the future the dealer has the ability to order a replacement part and have it drop shipped right away to help get the customer on the water faster. Many of our dealers do this around the world as a form of their own customer service and then deal with the warranty end later rather than making the customer wait until he can perform the required steps.
On to the product itself;
A small batch of our chickenloops were affected by this issue. When I say small I mean less than .05 % of them have shown any issue. It is not due at all to the line we use or the space the line runs through but rather the holes in the metal ball not being faired out enough. We are working with the factory and all our dealers to take care of this issue and while this happens any case that is brought to our attention the full part is replaced right away by airing the customer a new one. We still need the photos but we work with all the customers and their situations to make sure they are safe and get back on the water right away.
Unfortunately Matt was caught in a time period where the person who was filling in did not have the ability to stray from the rules on warranties and they asked for the pictures. Again we knew nothing about Matts inability to provide them or why. All we were doing was waiting for them. We did not receive them so we waited to hear from the dealer or customer.
Once I returned I was given Matts contact info and proceeded to call him right away to answer any questions he had. Also to get his mailing address so that I can get him a replacement part right away. The total delay seems to be from our first contact about 2 weeks and I would say that’s not too bad for a company devastated by a hurricane.
Matt has also asked to speak directly with our designer to ask the questions he wanted answered. The email was written today and they are gathering all the info so he has the proper answers so that perhaps he would not just go out and brand bash with only some of the information like so many do.
As for testing and these failures, We have tested this bar and part for close to two years and constantly do batch testing. That is how we were able to determine the cause of the failure on this small batch. This same part with no changes has been in the field for about two full seasons and performed at the top of the range of every brand on the market. I personally ride my original two bars from close to 3 years ago when testing this part began so that we have as part of our testing a longevity test. We also have onsite people who perform quality control which is something most brands do not provide.
There are close to 10,000. Redline Performance Bars out in the market to date.
With this specific issue we have seen less than 16 failures worldwide
As stated before we are taking care of everyone that has this issue right away and are being very proactive with our dealers to get any bar with a potential problem off the market. I have informed Matt and now everyone out there who reads this that if for any reason you experience a delay with one of your dealers or you do not agree with or understand a policy please contact us directly so that we can get an issue solved as quickly as possible.
It is unfortunate but in the world we live in people try everyday to take advantage of others whether it be individuals or companies. We have all been forced to take the proper steps to ensure this does not happen. One of our steps is that you need to send us a clear picture of the problem so that we can make sure it’s taken care of properly.
This was not written to spark the great debate that I am sure will follow but rather to provide the other side to a story. This way people can come to their own conclusions based on an even playing field. If someone comes on and yells one side to a story and does not provide the full truth but rather their version of it , That is not only is considered slander but it gives kiteboarding and its participants a bad name....
If anyone has specific questions please feel free to contact me directly at 1-866-700-BEST
Thanks for allowing me to post
Brian Scall
CS / Warranty Manager
I will start by telling you who I am,
Brian Scall; Customer Service and Warranty Manager worldwide for BEST Kiteboarding.
I handle all warranties for our brand at close to 600 dealers around the world in close to 100 countries. I also work directly with the R&D team to ensure the designers know of ever single issue that arises so that we may track the problem and make sure it gets fixed as quickly as possible.
Now on to Matt and the Redline performance bar issue he experienced.
Background;
Because of hurricane Irene most of our company was forced to evacuate our homes and offices and have not been allowed back until a few days ago. (two weeks) Because of this others in our company stepped up and filled in at positions they do not normally work in full time. Because of that those who were helping were forced to follow set out policies that we have in place. One of those policies is to require a picture of a defect to help us determine a manufacturing fault vs. a users fault. I know it is hard to believe but we daily get people trying to scam us into sending them gear because of something they read on a forum like this. They may not actually be experiencing the issue themselves but they tell us they are so they can get free stuff. On top of that we require a photo so that we can prove to our factories that they did not build a part to our standards. (they require the photos also) As you can imagine once you ask for a picture it quickly weeds out the scammers vs. the people who are having a problem.
So while I was gone Matt talked to his dealer and the dealer followed the proper steps in asking for a picture of the problem. The dealer received this feedback from the person filling in, the exact way he should. Because of no direct knowledge of Matts location or ability to take a photo we would have no way of working with him and a way around an immediate photo only because we were not aware of his situation. Not because we don't want to get him back on the water right away.
As for the statement about saying the dealer should have handled it, well I think the dealer did great with what he was given but I merely suggested that in the future the dealer has the ability to order a replacement part and have it drop shipped right away to help get the customer on the water faster. Many of our dealers do this around the world as a form of their own customer service and then deal with the warranty end later rather than making the customer wait until he can perform the required steps.
On to the product itself;
A small batch of our chickenloops were affected by this issue. When I say small I mean less than .05 % of them have shown any issue. It is not due at all to the line we use or the space the line runs through but rather the holes in the metal ball not being faired out enough. We are working with the factory and all our dealers to take care of this issue and while this happens any case that is brought to our attention the full part is replaced right away by airing the customer a new one. We still need the photos but we work with all the customers and their situations to make sure they are safe and get back on the water right away.
Unfortunately Matt was caught in a time period where the person who was filling in did not have the ability to stray from the rules on warranties and they asked for the pictures. Again we knew nothing about Matts inability to provide them or why. All we were doing was waiting for them. We did not receive them so we waited to hear from the dealer or customer.
Once I returned I was given Matts contact info and proceeded to call him right away to answer any questions he had. Also to get his mailing address so that I can get him a replacement part right away. The total delay seems to be from our first contact about 2 weeks and I would say that’s not too bad for a company devastated by a hurricane.
Matt has also asked to speak directly with our designer to ask the questions he wanted answered. The email was written today and they are gathering all the info so he has the proper answers so that perhaps he would not just go out and brand bash with only some of the information like so many do.
As for testing and these failures, We have tested this bar and part for close to two years and constantly do batch testing. That is how we were able to determine the cause of the failure on this small batch. This same part with no changes has been in the field for about two full seasons and performed at the top of the range of every brand on the market. I personally ride my original two bars from close to 3 years ago when testing this part began so that we have as part of our testing a longevity test. We also have onsite people who perform quality control which is something most brands do not provide.
There are close to 10,000. Redline Performance Bars out in the market to date.
With this specific issue we have seen less than 16 failures worldwide
As stated before we are taking care of everyone that has this issue right away and are being very proactive with our dealers to get any bar with a potential problem off the market. I have informed Matt and now everyone out there who reads this that if for any reason you experience a delay with one of your dealers or you do not agree with or understand a policy please contact us directly so that we can get an issue solved as quickly as possible.
It is unfortunate but in the world we live in people try everyday to take advantage of others whether it be individuals or companies. We have all been forced to take the proper steps to ensure this does not happen. One of our steps is that you need to send us a clear picture of the problem so that we can make sure it’s taken care of properly.
This was not written to spark the great debate that I am sure will follow but rather to provide the other side to a story. This way people can come to their own conclusions based on an even playing field. If someone comes on and yells one side to a story and does not provide the full truth but rather their version of it , That is not only is considered slander but it gives kiteboarding and its participants a bad name....
If anyone has specific questions please feel free to contact me directly at 1-866-700-BEST
Thanks for allowing me to post
Brian Scall
CS / Warranty Manager
Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
Brian,
Thanks for posting on this forum and giving your side of the story. Sometimes when you have an issue like I did with a brand new piece of equipment, you can come across with a little bit of an angry tone and I apologize if you saw that in my writing or on the phone with you. The money I put into fixing this problem in the field is also always in the back of my mind when I look at the bar. But as I said before, I empathize with your situation and wish you all well. I also want to completely avoid “bashing” as it does no good for our sport. Out at the lake yesterday and today over email, I received some suggestions to sell my Best gear and switch to another brand by people who think Best is junk. I will defend my best Kahoona V3’s (11.5m and 13.5m) as great kites that I would not trade in for anything right now. Also, I have no other complaints about the bar. In fact, the bar is totally awesome save my one issue. Being so leery of this particular issue for over 2 weeks now, I have tried to find another bar that has the same features as yours, but to no avail. The OSR handles are the greatest thing since sliced bread. The release is also so ingenious and easy to use that I think you should get an award for its overall design if this issue is really such a small percentage of the total sold and there is no other cause for concern.
But please keep us informed of any safety issues, regardless of the lengths it will take to get this info out there. In Minnesota as well as nearly all inland kiting, we are dealing with hairy launches with trees, people, and other obstacles closer than we wish they were. All it takes is that .00005% to cause an accident and get kiting banned from a lake, or even an entire city. Inland, we have to trust our equipment and there is always an over confidence with a newly purchased gear. I have now learned my lesson not to have that over confidence in new gear and I hope I have saved someone else from being part of a catastrophe. Just please do not put me or anyone else in the position of getting hurt/hurting an innocent bystander because I lost control of my kite and could not gain control of it again due to a “know issue”.
Please do not read the above as angry, read it as begging you to help us keep kiting open on our local lakes and keep us safe.
Thank you again for your response,
Matt
Thanks for posting on this forum and giving your side of the story. Sometimes when you have an issue like I did with a brand new piece of equipment, you can come across with a little bit of an angry tone and I apologize if you saw that in my writing or on the phone with you. The money I put into fixing this problem in the field is also always in the back of my mind when I look at the bar. But as I said before, I empathize with your situation and wish you all well. I also want to completely avoid “bashing” as it does no good for our sport. Out at the lake yesterday and today over email, I received some suggestions to sell my Best gear and switch to another brand by people who think Best is junk. I will defend my best Kahoona V3’s (11.5m and 13.5m) as great kites that I would not trade in for anything right now. Also, I have no other complaints about the bar. In fact, the bar is totally awesome save my one issue. Being so leery of this particular issue for over 2 weeks now, I have tried to find another bar that has the same features as yours, but to no avail. The OSR handles are the greatest thing since sliced bread. The release is also so ingenious and easy to use that I think you should get an award for its overall design if this issue is really such a small percentage of the total sold and there is no other cause for concern.
But please keep us informed of any safety issues, regardless of the lengths it will take to get this info out there. In Minnesota as well as nearly all inland kiting, we are dealing with hairy launches with trees, people, and other obstacles closer than we wish they were. All it takes is that .00005% to cause an accident and get kiting banned from a lake, or even an entire city. Inland, we have to trust our equipment and there is always an over confidence with a newly purchased gear. I have now learned my lesson not to have that over confidence in new gear and I hope I have saved someone else from being part of a catastrophe. Just please do not put me or anyone else in the position of getting hurt/hurting an innocent bystander because I lost control of my kite and could not gain control of it again due to a “know issue”.
Please do not read the above as angry, read it as begging you to help us keep kiting open on our local lakes and keep us safe.
Thank you again for your response,
Matt
Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
A couple of people have informed me that Brian's post contained a veiled threat at Best suing me for slander.
"If someone comes on and yells one side to a story and does not provide the full truth but rather their version of it , That is not only is considered slander but it gives kiteboarding and its participants a bad name...." - Brian
I do not take it that way. You have to give Brian and the portion of people who work for Best on the east coast some leeway in these hard times that they are facing. For me it was just loosing a a few kite sessions on brand new gear during the prime kiting season. For everyone on the east coast affected by the hurricane, it means that everything they know is turned upside down. Kiting is probably the furthest thing from their minds and I am sure they have not even been able to kite since. Their loss has been much greater than mine and I hope they come through it for the better. And again, I do not believe a customer service rep would threaten to sue a customer who believes in the brand.
"If someone comes on and yells one side to a story and does not provide the full truth but rather their version of it , That is not only is considered slander but it gives kiteboarding and its participants a bad name...." - Brian
I do not take it that way. You have to give Brian and the portion of people who work for Best on the east coast some leeway in these hard times that they are facing. For me it was just loosing a a few kite sessions on brand new gear during the prime kiting season. For everyone on the east coast affected by the hurricane, it means that everything they know is turned upside down. Kiting is probably the furthest thing from their minds and I am sure they have not even been able to kite since. Their loss has been much greater than mine and I hope they come through it for the better. And again, I do not believe a customer service rep would threaten to sue a customer who believes in the brand.
Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
Just to touch on this, We are not threatening anyone for anything and we would not do that. Again this is a situation that started between two and has now been brought to the masses. As with any forum people will look for any little detail to pick out and blow up. I have been in contact with Both Matt directly and the awesome dealer he worked with to make sure everyone has been taken care of.
Matt Thank you for your openess to both of us speaking our minds and allowing us to work together to remedy the situation. We are always open to public debate since the beginning of our colorful history and we continue on that path.
Matt Thank you for your openess to both of us speaking our minds and allowing us to work together to remedy the situation. We are always open to public debate since the beginning of our colorful history and we continue on that path.
Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
IF YOU DIG DEEP ENOUGH, I'm sure you'll find QC problems across all lines of kite gear, not to mention almost any manufactured products. When the early Waroos were having LE failures along the seam, I had quite the opposite experience with Best customer service. Luckily my first two '06 W-16's both failed along the LE seam within the 90 day warranty period, and the dealer shipped out a new one on each occasion, no questions asked. I did send the images they requested, but had no issues getting replacements. As a matter of personal preference, I now fly my BEST quiver using another brand's bars, but still enjoy the unique performance features that their kites deliver. Hope you find a good resolution.
WARNING:
I AM AN UNREFORMED SERIAL FLIRT!!
(please respond accordingly ;^{})
I AM AN UNREFORMED SERIAL FLIRT!!
(please respond accordingly ;^{})
-
alec.korver
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:34 am
Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
I know this is OT but Matt V, where are you located in Nebraska? We should go kiting sometime. If you want to go to yankton saturday b/c it will be blowing give me a call at 712 395 2822. Yankton is northern nebraska.
Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
As a product designer I couldn't agree with JRN more. Any manufactured product, especially one that is subjected to the abuse and harsh elements that kiting provides, has the potential to develop an unintended issue or failure. Often 100% inspection of all components/assemblies can be cost prohibitive. The important thing is that the company stands behind their product and does their best to make it right (which it sounds like they are doing).
Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
I received the replacement and Best kindly sent me a shirt for my troubles and the money I put into repairing the ball stopper in the field.
Unfortunately, this replacement ball stopper is not chamfered/deburred on the visible sides of the holes. From my machining experience, I know that any efficient chamfering/deburring typically takes place in a rotary fashion and will smooth the entire hole - not just one side. The accessible sides of the holes are sharp enough to shave the tips of my fingernails into curls.
Since I have happened across 2 defective ball stoppers in a row that Brian says have only an occurance of .05%, I bought a lottery ticket. I am also changing out the Best chicken loop to a North. I love the Best bar though and am going to keep that.
Total investment - $100 dremmel, $20 gas money, $150 for a new North release/chicken loop (OUCH!), 4+days of lost kiting, 20 days of good wind with no confidence in my gear.
Total reward - 1 nice Best shirt, good story to tell every one when they ask about my "FrankenBar", and a great next season of kiting in 2012.
Unfortunately, this replacement ball stopper is not chamfered/deburred on the visible sides of the holes. From my machining experience, I know that any efficient chamfering/deburring typically takes place in a rotary fashion and will smooth the entire hole - not just one side. The accessible sides of the holes are sharp enough to shave the tips of my fingernails into curls.
Since I have happened across 2 defective ball stoppers in a row that Brian says have only an occurance of .05%, I bought a lottery ticket. I am also changing out the Best chicken loop to a North. I love the Best bar though and am going to keep that.
Total investment - $100 dremmel, $20 gas money, $150 for a new North release/chicken loop (OUCH!), 4+days of lost kiting, 20 days of good wind with no confidence in my gear.
Total reward - 1 nice Best shirt, good story to tell every one when they ask about my "FrankenBar", and a great next season of kiting in 2012.
Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
Just a note for those of you looking to get a good deal on close out 2011 Best Redline Performance bars -
Another local kiter here purchased some Kahoona's after seeing me ride them at our local spot here in town. Though he tried to use a Cabinha bar with them, he recently picked up a closeout 2011 Best bar. I told him that we needed to check the ball stop on the chicken loop to see if it had been chamfered/deburred. IT WAS NOT! That makes 3 out of the 4 ball stops that I have personally examined fit into the defectively dangerous category (so much for a ".05 %" defect occurrence - try %75!). If the holes visible at the top of the ball stop are sharp enough to cut the ends of your fingernail, do not use the bar. The third one that I received from best was visibly chamfered and did not really need the fingernail test. It has operated satisfactory for me until just recently.
The rest of the bar/depower system is good. I do have some phantom releases with my remaining Best QR that I still have in service, though I can not say for sure anything is wrong with the releasing mechanism and it could be completely my fault for bumping it. I do have another North "Iron Heart IV" chicken loop QR on order to replace it so I can get completely away from the Best QR system. It is actually a good replacement for the best chicken loop though it is now around $130. But you can use the spare depower line it comes with as a replacement for the depower line on the best bar. The "Mini Fifth" loop will not go over the included North safety ring (leash attachment ring). So save your Best safety ring to re-use.
Another local kiter here purchased some Kahoona's after seeing me ride them at our local spot here in town. Though he tried to use a Cabinha bar with them, he recently picked up a closeout 2011 Best bar. I told him that we needed to check the ball stop on the chicken loop to see if it had been chamfered/deburred. IT WAS NOT! That makes 3 out of the 4 ball stops that I have personally examined fit into the defectively dangerous category (so much for a ".05 %" defect occurrence - try %75!). If the holes visible at the top of the ball stop are sharp enough to cut the ends of your fingernail, do not use the bar. The third one that I received from best was visibly chamfered and did not really need the fingernail test. It has operated satisfactory for me until just recently.
The rest of the bar/depower system is good. I do have some phantom releases with my remaining Best QR that I still have in service, though I can not say for sure anything is wrong with the releasing mechanism and it could be completely my fault for bumping it. I do have another North "Iron Heart IV" chicken loop QR on order to replace it so I can get completely away from the Best QR system. It is actually a good replacement for the best chicken loop though it is now around $130. But you can use the spare depower line it comes with as a replacement for the depower line on the best bar. The "Mini Fifth" loop will not go over the included North safety ring (leash attachment ring). So save your Best safety ring to re-use.
Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
Why not just replace the bar for the guy, why all the bull and excuses about the hurricane, just send the guy another bar and your done with it, now you have all this bad plublicity. Regardless of what was going on just replace the bar and have him send the bad one back so that Best can research the problem and possibly fix the issue, even if it's .05 bad, one bar, that could have been one bad accident or death, I'm sure best would not have wanted that to happen over a bar? Why does the consumer have to go through so many steps just to get something fixed that is a legit problem, maybe next best will just step up.
Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
They did send me a new bar and line set a few months after the initial occurrence and 1 defective replacement part. I am not happy with their customer service, especially initially, but they did eventually somewhat satisfy me. I wound up with a 50cm bar and a shirt, plus I am an expert at self rescue now.
My goal is not to trash Best. I really like the Kahoona's and have even thought about picking up another one minus the bar. My concern is to keep local kiters informed about the issues that could get kiting banned at our local areas. Most of the launches in the Midwest are crazy hairy and an equipment failure can be disastrous/deadly on a launch. Personally, I feel that Best should have recalled this release in its entirety. I know that they are dealing with a manufacture in China (who has zero liability), but us kiters are dealing with kite bans that are typically never lifted - not to mention our life and the lives of others.
To complete the compliment sandwich, my 11.5 Kahoona survived the unintentional ditching yesterday with out a visible scratch. I watched it roll with lines wrapped around the canopy several times after the leash carabiner bent open and I lost the kite. A boat ride and a swim through the shallows later and I found my kite up against the rocks. Amazingly there is no kite repair needed - tough kite! and a little bit of luck.
My goal is not to trash Best. I really like the Kahoona's and have even thought about picking up another one minus the bar. My concern is to keep local kiters informed about the issues that could get kiting banned at our local areas. Most of the launches in the Midwest are crazy hairy and an equipment failure can be disastrous/deadly on a launch. Personally, I feel that Best should have recalled this release in its entirety. I know that they are dealing with a manufacture in China (who has zero liability), but us kiters are dealing with kite bans that are typically never lifted - not to mention our life and the lives of others.
To complete the compliment sandwich, my 11.5 Kahoona survived the unintentional ditching yesterday with out a visible scratch. I watched it roll with lines wrapped around the canopy several times after the leash carabiner bent open and I lost the kite. A boat ride and a swim through the shallows later and I found my kite up against the rocks. Amazingly there is no kite repair needed - tough kite! and a little bit of luck.
Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
Thanks for keeping this positive and updating. We all know how frustrating resolution can be, it's not always timely and causes division. As stated earlier in the thread it's not hard to begin picking apart any manufactured product (Ex.: my daughter had a hay day this morning with a zipper and I've nursed the old carburetor on the mower to my whits end so now have a new mower).
Maybe we'll get a chance to review some of the new equipment and solutions offered by kite companies at the upcoming gathering mid July...
Maybe we'll get a chance to review some of the new equipment and solutions offered by kite companies at the upcoming gathering mid July...
Mike
LAKAWA Owner
http://store.lakawa.com/
https://www.facebook.com/lakawamn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelkratochwill
612-296-3201
mike@lakawa.com
Skype:mike.kratochwill
LAKAWA Owner
http://store.lakawa.com/
https://www.facebook.com/lakawamn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelkratochwill
612-296-3201
mike@lakawa.com
Skype:mike.kratochwill
Re: Brand New Best Redline Performance Bar Chicken Loop Fail
Out here at Lake McConaughy in western Nebraska kiting my a-- off since Monday. I took a look at the new release system on the 2012 Best Bar at the local kite shop here (Bob's Kite Ranch) and it looks much better. It is the same basic design, but the QC looks like they are now paying attention to the details. The SS ball stop on the end of the chicken loop is not only deburred but polished too. The new cuff has much more "Stick" to it and seems like it's design would eliminate most "phantom releases".