Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

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Bryce
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by Bryce »

I agree with rookie, it feels like it will just be a bunch of people complaining from all sides with no resolution. Especially if there is no set agenda.

This is not just a metro issue, it is a MN access issue. I may not live down in the cities but have spent a lot of time kiting down there.

you said
if you care about Kitesurfing in MN and this issue, please pick a date and attend. If you do not, then dont come.
I do care about kitesurfing in MN. And I would like to make it.

On top of that, having it only tues-thurs limits many people from coming, besides people that are out of town like me.
Bryce

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Stroh
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by Stroh »

I have a partial solution for people who care but can’t make it to the meeting

Allow proxy voting

It has been said that this can’t be held on this form because it involves people who don’t come on Lakawa. It is only fair to allow everyone who has a vested interest in the access to lakes in Minnesota to cast a vote.
I don’t currently live in the metro but I learned to kite there, rode there for about 4 years, and will probably end up moving back in a year or two…

MKA???
Can someone explain what the Minnesota kiteboarding association is? Is it a nonprofit org? Do we have something that resembles a board of directors?
Jon Stroh
mdh01
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by mdh01 »

Nate,
If it helps, I can get you a free WebEx account for this meeting...that would allow folks unable to attend in person to call into the discussion and participate remotely and view any documents/slides that you might want to share. Just a thought...

Mark
Nathan B
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by Nathan B »

Dave z , Mark, Gary, Stroh, Rob ,Dean , Bryce
Jimpat, and Dave Z please give me a call or email 612-940-6639 nathan@mnsurf.com
thanks

Very safe kite. really safe to learn on .
http://www.airush.com/blog/airush-access-video
reutersju
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by reutersju »

Guys,

Can someone clear things up for me. Is this about the self-imposed kite ban on Calhoun? Is there a current threat to any of our launch sites? Has there been negative publicity? I'm just trying to make sense of this strand. I started kiting two years ago and have been loving every moment and would like to help preserve our access to all MN lakes.

Thanks,
Chad
Nathan B
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by Nathan B »

seeing as I started this thread... lets just all step back and let things be for a while. If you are concerned about this or Access issues and helping preserve kiteboarding in MN. please give me a call or email to discuss. Thank you.
Tighe
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by Tighe »

Yeah Chad it's fairly complex issue that has come up every few years since the beginning of kiteboarding in Minnesota. I looked at the early posts and the first time this was debated was 2003, even though the self imposed ban was in place before that.

We originally created the ban after a kiter was unable to relaunch his kite and got pulled into the SW bay near Thomas beach. His kite was up on shore and he was in the water. Lore has it that people on the trail were walking over his lines and a mom and stoller even went over them. Obviously if that kite had launched while that baby stroller crossed the lines, we'd probably never kite in MN again. So there are obvious risks to gazillions of people who enjoy the lake in the summer.

The lake is also an extremely gusty lake, especially in summer. Every parking lot and roof top create thermals that reek havoc on the wind, not to mention the buildings surrounding the lake. In 1996 I created LAWA (lakes area windsurfing advisory...kiting as we know it had not been invented yet) for the purpose to encourage riders to check out some of the other great lakes in Minnesota. Many windsurfers learned on Calhoun and gave it up because Calhoun was all they knew and assumed that was what windsurfing was. Just wanted to open the options up. Funny now that there is even a desire to kite there.

Obviously there are some very talented riders in Minnesota who could reduce (not eliminate) the risks involved with riding Calhoun. This is where the issue gets more complex. If we were to develop some certification system, or decide that experienced riders can ride Calhoun, the challenge comes in keeping less experienced riders (who magnify the risks) off Calhoun. Say for example some dude riding around Calhoun in his bike sees kiters and says hey cool I can kite here. They go on Ebay and buy a kite, attempt to teach themselves down there at the beach near the kid park and well you get the story.

The only way I could imagine it working would be to have someone "policing" the entire shoreline every day with the slightest breeze. Currently we don't have that system in place and it's hard for me to imagine anyone wanting to do that....specially for a lake with such poor riding conditions.

It's been pretty amazing that we've been able to maintain this self imposed ban as long as we have. I think there have been only around a half dozen times in the last 10 years that kiters were seen on Calhoun. All of these have been individuals who knew about the ban and decided to ignore it. I'm amazed that we haven't had people who are new or traveling through town that never hear about the ban and do it because the just don't know. It is an indication that people do find info on the ban and for the most part respect that, which is reassuring.

so bottom line:
Extremely poor riding conditions (mega gusty winds, massive milfoil beds to tangle lines and limit treading water, sailboats, canoes, etc)
Shoreline lined with runners, kids, bikers, dogs, etc etc.
No system in place to monitor riders abilities so opening up for some opens it up for everyone
Visibility and media coverage if something were to happen would be significant and potentially effect access to other more desirable lakes

I don't understand why on earth we even want to consider this.

Having said that, I DO think we should have an association that provides the following:
- Safety information about riding in Minnesota, riding with windsurfers, boaters, swimmers, etc
- Launch information, Required skill levels/per wind direction, safety info (boat launch rights etc), ideal wind direction, amenities, etc.
- Legal council when (not if) an incident occurs
- Maintains an open dialog with the DNR and works with them to ensure everyone's enjoyment of the lakes
- Explores options of insurance and maybe offers it to it's members
- Organizes (with DNR approval) beach/ Launch improvement activities.


I also think it is of the utmost importance that this association NOT have any commercial ties. I think if there is a board of directors that is is made up of riders with no connection to retailers, schools, and probably even manufacturers (ie. team riders) then this would ensure the greatest adoption and hopefully unilateral support. In return, hopefully the association would indirectly support all the commercial interests in the area.

We don't have to rewrite the book here. There are many examples of this type of organization, MORC (http://www.morcmtb.org/subpages/aboutus.html) has done an incredible job, opening and maintaining trails throughout the state. They have monthly meetings of the board, which other members can attend and voice opinions. There are countless others.

I think it's time that we grow up as a sport.

I am interested, committed and very concerned about this cause, but I think my team rider status automatically disqualifies me from being anything but a member. I'll provide support, advice, consultation if desired. I hope that a small, non affiliated team can form and take the lead on this.

thoughts?
Tighe
Stroh
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by Stroh »

It is very refreshing to read your post Tighe! I couldn’t agree more with everything you said.

I think the difficulty here is going to be assembling a board to deal with issues. It is going to be hard to get the right people to sacrifice their time and energy on this with the requirements of no business involvement in Kiteboarding. But you are absolutely right, and it is something we have to achieve. Being that I operate a school it will be easier for someone to consider me to be lacking in independence and to have a bias on issues. This is the same for any other legitimate professional organization out there, and is it what we need to have.

Working with the parks department, DNR, and coastguard in a responsible, reasonable, and calculated manner is the only way to maintain our sport in the area. I feel the only way we can do this is with rational unbiased board of directors operating in a nonprofit organization similar to something like the MORC. Something resembling the MORC is exactly what I had envisioned when the talks about a Minnesota Kiteboarding Association started last year.

Obviously this isn’t free. But with some help from our very diverse community I think we can get this going very easily. Forming and running a nonprofit organization takes effort by people with special training and qualifications, which I am positive we have in our community.

In about a year I will be a licensed CPA, while I am by no means ready to offer advice or services at this time, in the future I would be willing to donate my time for whatever was needed of me. I think most of our community would be willing to help in the same way.
Jon Stroh
cat0271
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by cat0271 »

I read allot of the posts on here, but seldom reply. Today I want to reply!

Tighe, Jon, Nathan and Mike should all be involved. Generally speaking the ones whom care the most have things at stake including Nathan.
Funny how the post started with the full on community care, but now just sends you to buy an airrush kite??????

Lakawa and mnkiting are everones source for help.

I suggest that Mike put a button on the top of the page for all NEWBIES to know the ethics of MN kiting.
ollie
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by ollie »

Tigh, very well thought out and stated post.
As this sport grows there is going to be more and more reasons for some form of organization to help ourselves
and protect others from our kitemares. We all have stories after all!
Please, if everyone could get past old grudges & personality differances and move forward for the good of us all
it could be a great future for the sport.
We all as humans resent rules & athority but we also know it's needed as more people want to play on the
same playground.
So far here in Duluth these issues seem remote but who knows in five years park point could be the next WBL or Calhoun.
Thanks to all who keep this site and the others in the area going for the good of us all.
Bryan Z
bmr
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by bmr »

I think there have been only around a half dozen times in the last 10 years that kiters were seen on Calhoun. All of these have been individuals who knew about the ban and decided to ignore it.
Umm...in 2001 there were only a handfull of us (10-12?)...I would have never attempted to learn there if I new the wind was that gnarly and the possible reprocussions of my noobieness, let alone a voluntary ban. :oops: I think the matter this time around is more on educating the community at-large and arriving at a consensus of our codes of conduct re: site selection vs. skill-level. At least that's my take on what is in the threads.

The talk of committees, proxies, a board, and all that ....really??? Perhaps I'm a purist or just maybe this is going a bit too far? :!:

can you say counter-culture?

yikes.
Have kite, will travel.
Nathan B
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by Nathan B »

There is a way bigger realm to all this, and sorry the public has to see some smatter.. this post is not about riding calhoun its that I have been called by the DNR and community at large complaining about lakawa and others teaching at waconia and inner city lakes and the beginners at waconia dropping kites on boats and beach gowers and putting kites in tress and rigging in parking lot. and I have expressed my voice to tighe and mike and other schools that we should not teach there and that this will do us no good and waconia is a very tight launch. the lakes in the cities are not for beginners and shouldn't be taking them there for lessons and just creates bad growth or any lakes in the cities really. I know it can be done on a jet ski, thats not the point. in the end it will create bad growth. All we can do is educate people properly as this sport grows and teach them about picking a proper site access for their skill level.

its not about difference in people ollie, I think were are all great people and am always stoked to ride with everyone slap some high fives and shred.

if people are going to ride in tight situations all I can do is suggest the right gear that is safe to ride in that area. and the access is perfect kite for that as the video shows.

cat you do not even kite and have no idea of the situation at hand, as I have nothing at stake. Hope you and terry made it home that day in the storm and had a good doctors visit .. We ended up snowkiting in all that snow that day! so fun!
MK
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by MK »

If I'm still invited I see the value of a meeting. Is there development on this? Agenda would be helpful. I will offer to post and compile topics for the meeting. Collective input and contribution is welcomed. Probably more than one meeting of info to discuss. Timing now seems good b/t seasons.
Tighe
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by Tighe »

I partly agree with you Brad. The thought of organization and rules, and committees combined with kiteboarding seems like such a bad fit....AND I do think it's time if we want to preserve all that we love. For the most part everything we love about this sport will continue and not be too effected by an association.

On our recent trip to SPI we were able to see the value of an association at work. Recently an organization has formed down there which has established some rules for the flats, one of the main riding areas. Pretty basic, very logical rules. There are two buoys that form a line running parallel to the waters edge. They've asked that everyone keep the area between the buoys and the shore as a launch and land zone only. Seems to make sense. They also have established a no parking zone along the waters edge for rigging kites. dah. These rules were shared when we arrived and other than a reminder one day to park our vehicle back a bit more, we only benefitted from them after that. I've been going down there for nearly 10 years and with 50-100 kiters on the water, these simple rules really make sense. There were a lot less kites wrapped around vehicles, tangled in shallows, close calls, etc etc. Bottom line though, all that we love about riding SPI was not in the least bit effected.

In order for this to work there needs to be three things in place
1. An organization to establish and communicate the rules
2. Respect of the rules by the riders
3. Enforcement of the rules if riders choose to disrespect them.

Every rider I spoke with down there thought the rules improved the riding at the flats. There appeared to be a respect for the rules by all. I did hear of one rider banned from the flats after ignoring repeated warnings to obey the rules. I didn't hear any disagreement that that action was needed.

My hopes are that we will never need to do #3. I think we're just talking about #1 and #2. There will always be rogue riders that want to break the rules just because the rules exist. Who knows maybe by making the rules we'll have more of what we don't want to happen. If there is an association, they could ensure that these incidences were identified as atypical, and not representative of the larger body of riders.

Everytime this topic comes up we tend to realize how successful we've been at self policing ourselves. We all take accountability for our riding, we all respect the consensus that is formed in forums like this and Mnkiting, we all take it upon ourselves to help educate riders new to a launch, we monitor unsafe activities. AND we are one of the most welcoming, supportive, tight knit riding communities in the country. For the most part what we have works. So do we need an association? I still think we do. If only to capture the consensus that we all share and ensure that new riders become aware of it, to develop relationships with the DNR on a state level, and to provide legal counsel should something happen. Again though Brad, hopefully this will have very little impact on the ride.

Maybe one of the associations missions should be to preserve kiteboarding as we know it.
Tighe
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by bmr »

Tighe,

Thanks for your insight on what you've experienced in SPI. A loose-knit association where we all can arrive at "commonsensical" rules is more palatable to me than some kind of org with a quasi-corporate structure in-place. If I see anyone show up in a suit I'm outta there. :wink:

I can only remember 2 times where a rogue kiter was told to GTF off a lake - and that was in the early days of kiting here. There was a chronic offender (circa 2002/2003) who'd ride/jump over lines and cut peeps off who had the righ-o-way...and it eventually turned into a near MMA match out on the ice. :lol: Not sure what happened to him, but I haven't seen him since.

Be it because of lessons or whatnot, it seems we all are really respectful of eachother's ride. It will be interesting to see what is discussed.

Kite on.

~B
Have kite, will travel.
Tighe
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by Tighe »

Not sure what is going to happen here. Nathan appears to have erased his original post on page 1 of this thread. Is it still on? When and where? Seems like there is a fair bit of interest.
Tighe
Nathan B
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by Nathan B »

all I asked is to pick a date and we could meet talk about some issues and not discuss online for many reasons.
yea we will have a meeting but after this tragic loss, I feel we should just step back and chill for a bit. say our prayers for Mark's family and friends.
maybe have a beach clean up at Mille Lacs in Marks honor and we could clean Reddy Creek and Malmo one day when it warms up?
Last edited by Nathan B on Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Tighe
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by Tighe »

w.e.
Tighe
Nathan B
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by Nathan B »

I have had several emails and calls interested in the beach clean up at Lake Millacs! and we can meet at Malmo when it warms up!
lets get back on track with this thread and could continue to pick a date, we will have this meeting at Malmo park. and do a Beach clean up at Reddy Creek aka.Carlsona Beach aka the Hogsback. and of course we will clean Malmo park. This is a central meeting location for everyone in our state for the meeting and of course our best environment for kiteboarding and where we should be expressing for beginners to learn, so lets just pick a date and we will make it happen.
krazykatie
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Re: Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

Post by krazykatie »

Nathan, I think having a beach clean up in honor of Mark is a wonderful idea. I'm not so sure that having this meeting along side it would work out so well??? I feel the meeting should be indoors, out of the elements with internet acess for those who have expressed interest in skyping. If you/we choose to have the meeting near mille lacs, i'm sure there will be cities people who will be unable to attend as well.
Midwest Mountaineering/Slingshot Regional Team Rider
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