How do I learn this sport?

[MK]

We're nearing, not yet there!, the end of the open water season and it may be a good time to develop this further.

I hope to encourage some constructive feedback on helping secure safe access.

The community is caring and fun. How can we (me, you, that other guy) help share the sport while remaining safe and not put veteran riders on edge or people at risk?

I like how some organizations have tried to solve this by assigning proficiency guidelines. This is a solution that has come up in the past and withers on the vine for good reason - it takes time to develop. Plus it is riddled with red tape and detracts from some of the essence of 'freedom' the sport affords.

Recall how much there is to learn and how veteran riders of all ages make it look easy (kudos!). Maybe my school needs to offer more levels? Exams? Kite sales - new and used - need some certification??

Just throwing the topic out to help gain positive momentum. Since there are complex variables (wind, site selection, kite size, experience) a certification system seems appropriate. How people learn and to what extent it takes them to get "it" varies too.

My action plan to help this has been unveiling itself slowly. I would prefer it to go faster to aid in topics like this but resources and responsibilities slow the progress. I currently am finalizing my Level 2 Instructor certification within PASA. I view this as action in the right direction. Also, I am securing the school to be a PASA Certified School. I'm hoping the resources I'm investing in this area will help develop confident riders and a confident community.

I've always enjoyed this forum for its insightful and giving nature (most of the time ). I'm not above taking criticism and value your feedback. Access to the sport has a lot of good discussion in this forum over the years.

What are your thoughts?

[JimPat]

Hey MK!
Here is my quick observation. The biggest complaint I hear is how expensive the sport is -both the cost of the equipment and the cost of lessons. It's the same in MN, SPI and the Gorge (the only areas I have witnessed). We can't do much about the cost of the equip., but we all see newbies show up at the beach with old (which means unsafe equip. compared to today's stuff) kites. Often young guys with no fear and no money-so no lessons either-(Dopes on Ropes). Great formula, huh? (this certainly isn't a revelation to those who have been in the sport for a while right?!) I have listened to people complain about having spent three hundred dollars to barely get in the shallows (SPI) towards the end of the lesson and fly a real kite. They ask me how long at this pace (and expense) it will take and cost to be able to ride and feel proficient. They are a little discouraged at this point and they are trying to decide if they are willing to take the time and spend the money to continue. These are usually older adults or young professionals with the resources to continue if they get a little encouragement! Why can't intro lessons run at a much less expensive rate? The trainer kite is paid for after a couple lessons why do lessons run $100 to $150 an hour? Now when you start adding boats/jetskis, gas insurance, certification costs (for the instructor) drive time to and from the beach, etc. it becomes more understandable, but is all this conveyed to the student? Now as far as people showing up at the beach with old unsafe equip. who is to blame for that? Maybe an experienced rider who wants to upgrade to newer equip that handles better and has better safety features and wants to make a couple of bucks? Yesterday I watched a good friend (newer rider) ask a very experienced rider (local hot rider) how to hookup his RPM for unhooked riding. This guy showed him two ways to hook it up suicide(brilliant)! I showed him how to hook it up like the new North double ring system, (one ring thru the chicken loop and the other ring hooked to his leash),so he is still hooked to the active safety line. I digress- sorry. So many things for you to think about for growing this bus. as you are an integral part of it. I am impressed with your continual efforts to learn and offer a better product. You have a great community of knowledge I hope you get lots of input from them. Good luck and TA TA for now!
Jimster

[Denis]

Just a clarification point: Both the 2009 and 2010 RPM have a below-the-bar safety attachment point for the leash. Here are some diagrams.

2009 RPM bar



2010 RPM bar


The rider never has to hookup the leash on the chicken loop, the so-called suicide mode. In fact, if the rider has the leash in suicide mode and has to eject, the leash would not be attached to anything and the kite would fly away. On the 2009 bar, the chicken loop opens and on the 2010 bar, the chicken loop detaches.

I ride unhooked quite a bit on my RPM and I always use the depower safety attachment point. Even after losing the bar, relaunching is not very hard so there should be no reason to rig the leash suicide on an RPM.

[JRN]

FREE EVENTS: Come fly a trainer and see if you like it. No wind at your lesson (or too much wind)? No charge & a rain check for a future paid lesson. Only PASA certified instructors is a good start. Send the newbies an instructional video to watch prior to the 1st lesson. Discounts, or a special price for a newbie package at all local dealers. We should all be asking buyers of our used eqp. about their experience level. Maybe post a downloadable fact sheet to print and give out to kite buyers, interested bystanders, or folks struggling without apparent skills including: Lesson contacts, safety guidelines, and a primer on local launches citing skill level required. Just some ideas..
Hope they help.

[JimPat]

Denis:
I agree with you. I told my friend not to do either suicide hookup. The first one he offered up was to hook his leash on the spectra lines just above the chicken loop release mech..
why would someone do that? The other was to hook onto the chicken loop and as you said he would lose his kite(not really suicide)possible financial suicide? When in deep water if I pulled the release on my t3's I was never able to get the 10 to 15 feet of centerline threaded back without line tangles and I always ended up doing a self rescue as a result. He could possibly run the red saftey loop or the silver ring onto his chicken loop and then attach his leash to the ring or the red pull loop(what do you think about that? This would be similar to having the north brand double ring setup if that red loop is strong enough? I don't want to advise him to do anything outside the recommed setup unless it is something that makes complete safety and functional sense. Thanks for your input. See you this winter.
Jimster, soon to be drysuit Team rider!

[Tighe]

Jim I am amazed you're having any challenges with the Slingshot Stock set up. Every review I have ever read on the SS bars over the years has heralded them as the safest out there. Their bars have been copied over and over by so many manufacturers. I for one know that I have taught on the T3s for years with students and we go over (practice) the CL release, flag the kite and reingage, literally hundreds of times. Never an issue. Shallow water and deep water. It sounds like your issue must have been when there was no wind, else that one line would have been under tension, and would easily have fed back through the bar. Hmm, maybe I'm not getting the issue. Might be a small technique thing. Always a good idea to go through the sequence every now and again to acquaint yourself with it, so if you need it.

Feel free to call anytime and we can go over the technique.

Not the main jist of this thread though so I'll shut up now...

[MK]

Good start to the discussion. I'm going to make this Sticky for a while to encourage greater awareness of concerns. This effort may help minimize an incident.

Good comments. JRN: The Intro class has been offering free retakes for several years and I believe the intent was to help with your points. I have also added earlier this summer to my weekly eNewsletter similar verbage stating the Intro and Boardskillz class is free to repeat. I have had a fair amount of students take me up on this. I have had a few I recommend take the classes again too (for free). I'll consider your comments further to see how to develop them, thank you.

Jim: I too have had the 10-15' of centerline get entangled, especially while drifting. Subsequently anytime line is coiling while drifting we spend repeat messages of "make sure you are clear of the line" to the students." Teaching them in the shallows first is helpful and effective however once the conditions change, like while drifting, the experience of dealing with extra line is different enough for the first few times it can create issues. I do like how easy it is too relaunch once throwing the QR.

Here's a link that I feel is very helpful suggesting best riding locations: http://www.lakawa.com/lakes/waconia.html I haven't changed the wording since the purchase last December and believe it to be very beneficial in helping address this topic. You will notice the rest of the lakes listed have similar comments and the design of information is spot on; best winds, launch locations, experience levels. The trick is making everyone aware. And, once aware, reminding as our memory fades.

It is a complex topic and easier left alone. Providing solutions will help minimize accidents. Additionally, it is tough for some to enter the sport just to get to know people. The newbie is already at a disadvantage since we know they will require some help and not everybody is available to help - for example the rider who has a small window of opportunity to ride between responsibilities.

Hope to see some more discussion. This will ultimately help those new to the sport who don't have an "in" with an experienced rider understand some of the issues at stake.

[Lebowski]

I have a vested interest in this topic as I began taking water lessons from Lakawa this summer. I've done the intro, Boardskills, 101, and 202 classes, but am still trying to put it all together to stay up on my board. As someone that grew up behind a boat on the lake skiing, I have found this a difficult sport to learn. Not that I expected it to be easy, mind you, just thought it'd be a little easier.

To add some insult to serious frustration, this season I collided with an experienced rider and blew my 12m kite, stranded myself in the middle of a lake for 2 hours on top of my 16m kite, broke my harness during a high wind day, and tore a small hole in my 16m kite. Despite all this, however, every time I'm able to get out makes me happy and I feel energized for the next time.

Anyway, while lessons and equipment are an expensive up-front investment, Mike made it clear from the beginning I was free to retake any of the lessons if I desired and to try out any of his gear - which is a great policy. Given my own struggles, I can't imagine trying this without taking lessons.

While in Chicago last week I noticed that to ride at ALL, you had to have PASA 2 certification and a city-issued streamer attached to the kite (see http://www.chicagokitesurfing.com/ridin ... trose.html). I know this would be difficult to enforce given the amount of lakes here, but perhaps Lakawa could sell/give streamers to the experienced guys. If a newbie shows up and doesn't have one, the experienced guys could simply talk to the newbie and suggest taking some classes or certifying. This would at least help in ensuring marginal amount of safety.

I would also suggest a newbie "fair" a couple of times per season where some willing experienced riders would show up to Mille Lacs, Waconia, etc. to meet whatever newbies can come out. The intent would be to offer some (pro bono) advice on set-up, kite flying, or riding as a sort of kiting learning "conference." Nothing formal, but slightly organized (similar to the Gatherings) to bring us newbies together with some free help. In my experience, everyone has been ready to offer advice, but arranging a special day for this would take the pressure off. If it works, some vendors could come out to show off some of their wares or sell some used equipment...

[nickfastswim]

I really hope there will never come a time that I have to have a certification/streamer just so I can go out on a nice day to kite here in Minnesota. And last thing I want is someone to be making a profit off me for a silly streamer. Do I need a special certification so I can go for a bike ride to the park…no, do I need certification to windsurf…no, I defiantly don’t want one to be able to kite.

Probably the reason in Chicago they have that is because the beaches are very full during the summer and they don’t want newbies and even experienced kiters near swimmers and beach goers. Plus that certification requirement is only for certain locations and not others (again aimed specifically at the popular crowed beaches). We don’t have such issues here in MN due to a smaller population density. Of course we have lots of boats on our lakes but when the wind picks up and the water becomes choppy boaters disperse.