What does everyone fly?

[cjules]

Just wondering what everyone flies. Seems like a ton of bows/hybrids in the community here, but not many foils, specifically closed cell. (Peter Lynn, Flysurfer, HQ Neo etc) just wondering why this is or am I totally off base here?

[JRN]

We have a Peter Lynn rep in Sandstone(ref:MnAdventure). I have 3 PL'sthat I use in winter. They are GRADUALLY gaining some acceptance. My main fear for closed cells in our unsteady winds, is having the kite drop when the wind dies. I know they remain buoyant for some time, and are great for areas with steady wind & shallow waters, but would only use them at Mille Lacs or Superior shores. This is my choice, since I like the PL's best for their peak seeking traits, and the simple(like me) bridle set up: 4-lines without the intricate spider-web tangles of standard foils.

[Tighe]

From my very non scientific knowledge of the Minnesota riding community the breakout falls about like this

Winter riders: Approx 400-500
Summer (year round) riders: Approx. 200
Winter only riders: 200 (da)

Percent of Winter Only riders riding foils: 80%
Percent of Year Round riders owning only foils (closed cell): 1-3%
Percent of year round riders having a winter quiver of foils and tube kites for summer: 3-5%


The reason for the low percentage of year round (closed cell foils) IMO is most likely due to the fact that we don't have big beaches. Self launching seems challenging without a big beach to help preinflate the foil.

Our conditions in Minnesota tend to be quite gusty, with the exception of Mille or Superior. Bows and Hybrids tend to handle gusts extremely well which is most likely the reason for their dominance.

Again this is not in any way a scientific assessment.

[monkey1031]

tighe,
that actually might be the most scientific thing i've seen on this site.....



my crappy quiver = Liquid Force Havoc (12m2)
Cabrinha Nitro (14m2)
Slingshot Machine (20.5m2)

My wish list includes a 16m2 Havoc and a 25.5m2 Machine.


-smd7

[cjules]

tighe,

The people I know that use the arcs use them mainly because of their gust munching ability. Also stability is huge, and autozenith is an amazing feature. Let go of the bar and the kite happily rises to the zenith and just sits there completely depowered until you provide input. Here on the SD boarder we have very shifty winds also which makes preinflation tough some times. I use a black & decker portable blower in those cases. May seem silly but no more silly that LEI guys with mattress pumps I guess. I can't comment on the SS Turbos because I haven't flown them, but to me atleast it seems like gusty inland conditions are perfect for the closed cell kites.

[Bryce]

I flew a 2/4 line old naish kite as my kite. Next I got a peter lynn bomba. The bomba was worlds ahead of the naish kite. That kite didn't suck up the gusts that much much, though better then the naish (I'm sure they have improved since). Pretty good kite in the winter. I somewhat learned water kiting on that kite and it was a big hassle with it getting wet (5-10 minutes in the water on a light wind day) and not launching. Also trying to get it to inflate was annoying. You definitely need a technique to inflate that kite and getting it up in the air (it didn't work too well for me at the time, but aaron has it down). If you had a big beach this wouldn't be as bad but many of our launches are fairly small.

After that kite I switched to a cabrinha crossbow I which was a step above the bomba in relaunchabity, depower, and was an awesome kite.

So my reasoning why you don't see them up here.
Between foils/arcs/inflatables

Summer:
foils - no go
arcs - harder to find a good launch, pain to inflate, water getting in kite.
inflatables - somewhat of a pain to inflate, easy to learn on

Winter:
Foils - very easy to setup. Durable.
arcs - somewhat of a pain to inflate
inflatables - pain to inflate (cold)

[Tighe]

I may have been misleading. I did not intend to state that other kites were not good gust handlers. I meant to say that the Bow and hybrids tend to handle gusts better than other inflatables.

I totally agree. I have heard over and over from numerous respected sources that the PL kites are some of the best for gust gobbling and stability in high winds. Definitely a great option for winter riding.

[steveb]

A total of 40 to 50 Ozone foils are sold in MN every winter, a little slower this year but still not bad.
4 line foils have very similar depower as the inflatable kites , probably the same amount.
It really depends on how many kites you want in your life, the number of year round kiters that use foils in winter, inflatos in summer is a higher percentage than Tighes guestimation. Nationally the number of people using foils in winter is a much higher percentage. When you get to the mountain states less than 5% of riders use inflatables.
Foils are quicker to set up, take less of a beating, are easier to park, and when they're switched off are truly off.
I use foils in winter because I hate the damage the snow and ice can do to the leading edge of the inflatable kite. But that's a personal thing.
These days there's no right or wrong , both styles of kite will do the job superbly and safely. It's just a question of what you fancy.

[dtownkiter]

i only ride LEI's (bows) because of the year round factor. something about riding on the water and an inflatable kite makes sense to me. however, i am not really sure what esle is out there that you can ride year round with the same relaunch capabilities as a LEI (waves, light wind, etc)? maybe this winter i will have to demo some foils because the last time i rode one was way back when. it would be interesting to see the advancements in design and capabilties.

anyone remember the viokites? they would zipper from a 5m-7m...i think that was the last foil i rode.

[Tighe]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAKlP95lGSA[/youtube]

[JAE]

Hmm, not a lot of foils in that video huh.

I have a PL 15M synergy I am trying out this winter. So far I like the simplicity of the setup and it is really stable. I actually had it out on WBL last fall before the water turned to ice and had no problem. The huge beach at ramsey made lunching pretty easy.

Regarding inflating the closed cell foil, just get a cordless leaf blower for $50. Lay the kite out and open one of the fill ends and put the leaf blower on while you are laying out your lines. By the time your lines are laid out you have a nice big sleeping bag looking kite ready to launch.

jeff

[Nathan B]

Ha nice vid Tighe! That event is amazing Monty@SnowkiteSoldiers does a great job with the SnowkiteSoliders Event! I helped out with the event last year and will be out there helping and sharing snowkite stoke again, hope to see some MN and Midwest peeps out there! http://www.snowkiteevent.com
(also that spot where that vid was filmed is a Park and Ride spot might be why u see less foils)

Regarding this thread, I use both Inflatables(lei) and Foil(ram air) kites. They both have there places in the sport and I am really loving the foils I am using now Airush, Crest and Outback. They have a screen over the air cells to help with stability and keeping snow out of the canopy, but are land and snow use only unlike the foils cjules that you stated. and personally I prefer the performance of a LEI kite. w

Tighe's, Bryce and dtownkiter are right on to why you see so many bows n hybrids cjules, also that is what the market has really turned to. kiteboarding is alot larger of a sport than snowkiting to sum it up.

Steve, that less than 5% in the "mountain states" has changed alot. after seeing how many people were on LEI last season that % has went up quite a bit.

[MK]

I have seen one of the PL's recently this summer. It was a bugger for those learning on it but an interesting kite. It definetly has a unique flight and look. I'd try it. I'd like to see an experienced rider give it a go on the open water.

I would caution you (or anyone) parking their kite at the zenith just because of gusts. I don't expect this caution to gain a legacy but the logic behind it (PASA) is to allow room for gusts. Therefore try resting your kite a little right or left of straight-up 12 o'clock. If a gust does come you have a little warning.

I'm a fan of being able to park my inflatable kites on the side and let it sit while I do whatever. I'm also envious of the set up and break down time of foils but just don't want to comitt to both for a quiver. I save money and square footage in the shrinking garage but have lost out on awareness of different manufacturers. Therefore, a new years resolution is to test some kites this year!

Until inspector gadget produces a push button instant set up/break down kite I'll have to use what works. I think we all agree that outfitting your quiver has a host of options, at times overwhelming, and differ by personal riding interests.

And monkey8675309 (robbie), that Nitro is pure love. I "need" to ride it again. Maybe tomorrow at Cannon?

[cjules]

As far as stability goes for the PLs at the zenith, [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSWfi5AMT2E[/youtube]

You can literally tie the kite up and go have lunch. If a gust comes, it kind of bends and deforms, then is back to its shape.
Also, I haven't tried the Flysurfers ($$$), but as far as ease of water relaunch, I've heard the Pulse II's are second to none.

[Eric Bro]

Nice snow kite video, and again, not many foils there.

In my experience, foils don't depower as well as the bow or hybrid kite inflatables, and aren't as maneuverable. IMHO (I'm not a rep)

I have a set of inflatables, Slingy and Cabs, and 3 foils: 2 Ozone Accesses and a 7.5 Frenzy.

I finally sold an '06 10m Ozone Frenzy last fall because, though I loved the kite, I found I was using the LEIs more in winter and it less. One reason was that it was difficult to depower and land when the wind started honkin over about 25. I'd park it at 11 or 1 at the edge of the WW, depower it and it would still nearly pull me off the ground. That fully inflated foil just got firmer and more efficient in the gale and even though it was flat to the wind with the bar out and depower strap engaged, that airfoil always had a ton of lift (and drag). Just like a fat Piper Cub wing while trying to land too fast.

In similar conditions my depowered inflatable Switchblade 2 10m would become a very inefficient airfoil, nearly all lift turned off, behaving itself nicely.

The other thing I like about the LEI is that because it doesn't have all that air inside and so has less mass and inertia; it accelerates quicker, turns faster, and can develop more power in bursts. Maybe not good to learn on but great later on.

I loved the easy set up of the foils, yep, though the bridles sometimes could get tangled. They certainly are a lot easier to carry around. If you're learning and the kite ends up on the ice a lot a foil is much better. But if you keep your kite up the whole time you're out, I recommend an LEI.

[WildBill]

I prefer foils in the winter for ease of use. I love my Manta II's. Yeah, they fold and tangle once in awhile. The Manta comes undone most of the time so I rarely have to unleash and go do it manually. Most of that untangling is the kite design but a smaller part is just experience using it.

I use Waroo's in the summer and they have a similar loftyness that the Manta II does. I say if it weren't for the ease of use and destructability of the LEI(inflatable) I prefer to use it in the winter. The big key is with a foil I can just walk out, hopefully have some snow to hold the kite down, unwind the line and away I go; 5 minutes on the foil versus 20-30 minutes freezing my hands with a LEI.

[BBAddict]

I am another one of those that chooses to have a summer quiver and winter quiver. I just find the ease of use and the ability to do long trips or backcountry without a pump to be a huge advantage. I really enjoy the way the Ozone's fly and don't feel like I'm giving up performance to fly a foil.

I also had the opportunity to try the new PL Charger in a 15m this weekend. Super fun to fly and surprisingly fast for a big kite...like really fast! Had great pop off the snow and very stable like all PL kites. It's so weird to be able to walk around with the kite or just lay there and not have to worry about the kite position. It really does auto-zenith wonderfully. I don't have as much experience as some others (MNAdventure admin) with the PL foils, but I can share my limited experiences thus far. Gust munching for sure--in sessions where I see a lot of inflatable kites jumping around in the gusts, it seems like the PL kite just deformed or something and it had very little effect. Great lift, simple to set-up and fly. The only downsides are the fact that a larger launching area is generally needed--no problem in winter but something to keep in mind in summer.

My current quiver consists of kites from Ozone, Cabrinha, Naish, Flexifoil, PL. All I can say is that no one kite has it all. There are strengths and weaknesses of every kite--just have to decide what is important to you and (to a certain extent) how much you want to spend.