Very frustrating

[Mike]

I went out on Tonka last night, it was blowing around 15 when I left my house so I felt comfortable with my Frenzy 13m. By the time I was set up and ready I could tell it had built some and was plenty gusty but there were no fish houses, the snow was good and I had plenty of leeward sea room. Wow what a frustrating experience!! When a gust would hit, my kite would continually back wind like it was caught in a rotor or something and shoot toward me, then it would tangle up into a ball as it drifted back down wind. When the slack was out of the lines it would partially or completely open up and shoot off in what ever direction it happened to be pointing. Half the time I wouldn't be able to change directions or point my skies downwind and would get jerked out of my socks. I was plenty far out into the lake where I would not expect rotors from the shore. What the H E double toothpicks was going on? After an hour or so of this I was too overpowered to make it the last 100 yards upwind to my car and too beat up to fight it any more... I pulled the release, wadded the kite up under my arm and walked back. When I got home I checked the MYC weather station and saw it had been blowing in what I would consider to be the 13m's upper wind range for a compatent rider (which I am not) and I know I was overpowered...but what was up with the damn thing back winding all the time?

[cautionkid]

Just get an inflatable and end your fustrations.

[markjohnson]

Please explain why a foil does this and an inflatable does not.

[WILLDOG]

The foils have no ridge internal structure where as the LEI (Like Slingshot Fuels) have a ridge frame. So when the big puffs hit the kite the LEI will hold it's shape.

When the wind is blowing from the East on Tonka it can be a little puffy (to say the least). I was out a few weeks back on an Easterly day and it was not as fun,,,, but still fun.

[MikeF]

In my perspective of that question it look like this.....

Foils use ram air, air being forced into it thus making it gain structure. It is an open system if air is not being forced into it, it will not hold that shape.

An inflatable has a closed system you force the air into it untill you reach a certian PSI rating and that air stays in there untill you let it out, thus keep the structure no matter the situation.

Edit. Another thing about the foils and the inflatable is the inflatable has a leading edge that is fill with air along with struts that run 90º to the leading edge giving it alot more structure. Where as the foils I know of only have veins that run in one direction making folding up in the sky easy even if there is air being forced into it. Mabey foil makers should try using angled veins possibly. Dont know Im not an engineer just a good observer and a problem solver.....Ill probly still be thinking about this problem later tonight. I really dislike riding foils because of this reason and try to ride my inflatables exclusivly.

Just my 2 cents.

[UpNorth]

I use foils so I can share your pain. I think Mike F is right, when there is a lull in the wind, the foil has less air pressure inside the cells to help the kite hold it's shape. Consequently, inflatable kites are much better for dealing with gusty winds. I have found that for foils to work correctly, the wind needs to relatively steady and clean. If you are somewhat close to shore or an island or anything to disrupt the wind, it will cause gusts to be much more severe and unpredictable.

I have found that you need to be at least a quarter mile from any sort of obstruction that would cause this. The farther away you are, the cleaner the wind. Sometimes the wind is gusty no matter where you are, and then you just have to deal with it. So yeah in that respect inflatables are better. But i still like foils for their quick setup and take down, they pack down smaller, no bladders to worry about popping or valves leaking and so on.

I guess both styles have their merits. You could go with a closed cell foil and get the best of both. Any Flysurfer or Neo owners wanna back that one up??

Jack

[wyatt]

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but the part of your story where you say you had to "sail upwind to your car" makes me wonder if you were too close to shore...

I've learned from experience that having to sail upwind in flukey conditions (and moreover, parking upwind) can cause all kinds of problems, especially with foils. Typically, when I go out, I'm riding (and parking) in the area of the lake furthest downwind that I can possibly be - where the wind will be cleanest and unobstructed. Don't know if you were trying to fly near Excelsior yesterday, but being on the southeast portion of the lake with a SE breeze (especially a heavy one) could easily cause the problems that you're describing, regardless of the type of kite you're flying. The shoreline does all kinds of funky (and turbulent) things to the wind direction and velocity (AKA Venturi effect). If I was out yesterday (and I wasn't), I would have been riding around Bracketts Point or the northwest corner of Browns Bay.

I wouldn't get a new kite - just cleaner air. Good luck!

[Mike]

The fact that my kite is a foil I'm sure made the situation more frustrating as it would not hold its shape and the tips would tie themselves in knots when it went slack, But the real problem was that it would back wind (and I mean like 1/3 the control lines) back toward me then power back up and I go skipping across the lake on my belly like I'm holding onto a bull's tail. There were two other kites (inflatables) out in the same area while I was out and I did not notice thier kites back winding at all. (thou I was sorta busy at the time) Is it possible that the foils are more likely to get back winded?
I guess I gotta think along the lines of Waytt and head to the leeward shores for cleaner wind, thou I've sailed Tonka my whole life and I don't believe my sails would have back winded where I was and in those winds. Perhaps the kite is just more sensitive to the wind shifts and such but you'd think the increased apparent wind would settle things down more.

[Tighe]

I agree with Wyatt...partially. You do want to have as much distance open upwind of you as possible to minimize the effect of all the stuff along shore. I wouldn't ever even consider riding within a mile of shore on an offshore wind...and I usually choose lakes that will provide at least 3 miles fetch upwind.

If you new to riding or out in conditions new to you....actually almost anytime, if you can get a decent fetch and give yourself a good bufferzone downwind you'll be much better off. If something goes wrong....as it can, dragging along the snow is a lot less dangerous than getting pulled into a tree, house, etc.

hope that helps.

[Mike B]

In gusty winds the foils are more prone to "backwinding" when they are set at maximum depower. Although, this sounds more extreme than I would expect. When the depower strap is maxed out, the angle of attack is so shallow that the surge forward in a gust will allow the wind to backwind from the top surface of the foil and dstroy all lift. Staying away from areas prone to rotor (upwind shore) and using a smaller size kite that does not require the depower to be maxed out will help.

[jeff1]

When flying foils in gusty conditions try flying a smaller kite that you can keep deeper in the wind window. When you are overpowered you start flying closer to the edge of the window where the kite can fly beyond the edge of the window in a gust and in turn backwind. By flying a smaller kite you fly the kite more agressive keeping the kite deeper in the window where air is constantly forced into the kite to hold it's shape.

[JimPat]

Try filling in all those cells with one of those spray foam products or that fix a flat stuff. This should make the kite more rigid. Hope this helps!

[Tighe]

There are some closed cell foils out there that eliminate a lot of these issues. Flysurfer, Peter Lynn, and a few others have foils that once filled up, don't allow the air to escape. Obviously you're not going to get the rigidity of an inflatable, but you will have a more uniform platform in gusty conditions. I've heard people love the Peter Lynns in gusty conditions.

These kites can also be used in the water, though our launches are not as ideal for pre inflating these kites.

Personally I'd rather fly a solid wing.

[markjohnson]

Is it unusual that an 8m Access would fall out of the sky (or backwind ? ) on a day where the wind is 15 to 20 mph,but gusting? Before a gust comes does the wind speed normally die down a lot? or just a little?

[JimPat]

Mark.......I was out there that day and it was very windy. I could hear the wind howling thru the trees at the Island and I was guessing the gusts were well over 20mph. I aired up my 9m T3 and was fully powered 75 to 80 percent of the time I was out. I couldn't imagine being out on my 14m T3. The gusts were so big and unpredictable that I held back from jumping most of that day and focused on max speed runs(wished I had a GPS). Mr S. Chapman (who is one heck of a rider/kiter) was pissed that he had forgotten his 9m at home and so he went out on his 14m T3.
Scotty....if tyou read this please let me know how that worked out(curious).
I've been told that the foils are gruntier than the bowes and that you should size down several meters from what you would be riding if you were on a bowe. That would tell me you could have used a 7-8m foil that day. I give you big cudos for going out that day on your 13m. I look forward to seeing you out at the Island soon!