Closed Foil Questions

[Dean Rizer]

I was in Padre the 7th-13th of Nov. It was reasonably warm and the winds were very good I rode my TD2 7 two days in a row. The Canadian crew was there again on the flats and in the surf with their Flysurfers. They have been there the last 4 years. Their boosts were high, long and floaty and they handled a fair amount of wind. I spoke with John Elkins the Flysurfer rep out of Bellingham, WA. I guess you see more Flysurfers in Canada and the Gorge. I was set up for a demo ride but it was too dark. Jeff at Air Padre said Flysurfers were all he used to ride, but he found them slow compared to newer kite designs so he stopped riding them 4-5 years ago. Larry at Scuba Center said he used to sell them but he sold only two or three and they were spendy. Up close the construction is what you would expect from a German manufacture; quality in materials and workmanship. I know Tom L, and Mike W. have ridden or are riding Flysurfers? The beach launches of the closed cell system seemed effortless. I didn't see any one drop a kite so I didn't see a water relaunch. I also wasn't sure how these might selflaunch, that's a key issue for me. I noticed on the Flysurfer site that they make motorized paragliders. There's something to do in light or no wind! Has any one had experience with Flysurfers? Was it positive?

Thanks!

[Tighe]

I don't have any experience with them but I've heard good things about them, especially the Pulse II and the Silver Arrow. I still think they'd be really challenging launching in any spot that doesn't have a good size beach, in the summer that is. With all the crap we get in the water in the spring, I'd also be concerned with stuff getting caught in the bridle. I think they'd be great winter kites.

They are super spendy though. If you buy one I'd love to check it out.

[JRN]

Talk to Mike Winter. He has a flexifoil speed that he rides on water & in winter & I saw others flying in Texas City on my last visit. I have grown fond of my Peter Lynn closed cell foils, especially the simplicity of the bridle. I'm looking to add a couple more to my winter quiver.

[Tom L]

Dean,
I have a Silver Arrow 19 for winter, but tried it on water this summer. They relaunch on water super easy. Self launching on a large beach is a breeze. Self launch or drift launching in water is quite the experience though. I successfully drift launched in light wind, but decided it was just too much work compared to a tube. I think the smaller versions would be way easier to self or drift launch. Because the 19 is so high aspect (long and thin) I think it's more prone to tangles. If you have a tangle out on the water, it can be a disaster. A wet deflated foil is lika wet sleeping bag. I've been able to sail in with an iverted bow, but a tangled foil might not get you back in.

The new Flysurfers have a lot of fans though. They do jump great. They are way better now than they used to be. I would say the The Speed & the Psycho fly more like a bow due to there turning characteristics. I'm not sure if there are enough advantages to using a foil in our area, in the summer, to outweigh the negatives. In the winter it's a different story, foils are great.

Got to http://www.foilzone.com/phpBB2/ If you post there you'll get some good insight. There's a bunch of Flysurfer geeks there. The problem there, is they might be a little biased, in favor of foils.

[Dean Rizer]

I can definitely see the winter applications. Water kiting locally causes pause. Last Summer I had two self launch bridle tangles/ spins, one caused by a stick and one by a piece of floating milfoil. The T3 bridle is simplistic compared to the ones I saw on the Flexifoils. I'm with Tighe, I'd love to fly one!

[Mike W]

I have owned 3 or 4 Flysurfers over the years, and I think they are the best foils money can buy. I used the Speed 17 last winter about 80% of the time, and the thing set up really fast, and offered some really floaty jumps. But I decided to sell that kite because I think the T2 17 beats it in just about every area of performance, and I can use the T2 all year. Setup time is longer with an inflatable, but not by much with a Coleman pump. The downside to using a Flysurfer as a snow only kite is that there is a lot of extra material on the kite designed to make it water friendly. If you went with an Ozone, you would most likely get a lighter kite.

The bottom line is that the best inflatables still outperform the best foils (with the exception of the Silver Arrow, which is the light air king!) So you have to ask yourself if you are willing to give up some performance for easy setup in the winter. Foils are just too impractical around here in the summer even though you can use them if the conditions are right.

[seamonkey]

forget your kites, just get towed in by a snowmobile. You can be just like laird Hamilton!

[ice_kmauve]

I "learned" to kite on a closed-cell foil, a kite much better adapted for land or snow riding than water. Foils take a beating quite easily in the water, because after they start filling with water, they are very heavy, the seams break, they are hard to drain, and probably aren't good flotation devices in a worst case scenario. I never had to float in with a foil, but I can't imagine it would be safe or quick.

Here's an easy reference card:

water - inflatable kites, for safety and ease of use. 2006 waroo preferred.
land/snow - foils.
indoor - teams of rottweilers or trained goats pulling you on a buggy

The rottweilers are actually pretty good flotation devices, in case you use them in water. Goats easily waterlogged.

Dave

[Tighe]

To your point Dave, wouldn't the 2006 Waroo not be the safest kite, since in order for it to be a floatation device it would require that it hold air, which that year unfortunately is notorious for not doing too well.

[Emily]

you guys are kidding right? How many months of water kiting do we have in mn vs anowkiting? A closed cell foil holds it's internal pressure better then an open foil in gusts. It takes snow and ice beatings better than an lei. We live in mn the land of ice and snow. Not Hawaii. Buy a closed foil and have the best of all that mn has to offer.

[Tom L]

Emily,

Be careful, don't start the foil vs tube discussion. There's no end to that one.

I'd have to say Milly is far better for foils in water than our city lakes. Big beaches and shallow water.

[Dean Rizer]

Tom, I totally got it when you used your "trying to launch a wet sleeping bag" analysis. I once had an older Frenzy 7.3. Great kite when powered but on Calhoun it had a tendency to bow tie in gusty conditions. In the spring when there is water on top of the ice the kite would get wet and in ligher winds it wouldn't launch or relaunch. I was surprised by Mikes T2 17 comments. In gusty or building conditions, which kite type do you think would allow you keep kiting. For me the down side of inflatables on ice or hard pack is safely self launching and landing them. The kite wont stay still. Oops was that a foil vs. tube question?

[steveb]

Dean...a lot of it is if you want the kite for all applications or snow only.
Ozone started a water foil called the vision, they couldn't get the performance out of it, and shelved the project.
The wrap issue for snowkites has been cured by what Ozone calls the X and Y bridle. This new bridle was on the Manta last year and I'm pleased to say I had no bow ties all season. This bridle has now been added to the Frenzy as well as the Manta for 09. The Y bridle came from the water kites center line, so when you look at the new foils they look like a 3 liner, until the center line brakes into a Y shape about 15 feet from the kite. The Y bridle helps support the leading edge and has allowed Ozone to reduce the amount of bridle on their kites by about 35%. Since they no longer need as much canopy support. This causes less drag, less lines, less weight and a noticibly faster kite.
The X bridle crosses the kite in the bridle in an X configuration from the wing tips. These lines are direct to your control lines and stop the kite being able to twist, if it does gentle pressure on the back lines opens the kite up for relaunch.
With other changes the 09s have more depower, more turning leverage and better safeties.
So all in all better snow foils. I think a lei will still have the edge for jumping off a lake, but the gaps getting closer all the time.
Not sure this was info you were looking for but just in case.....

[Tom L]

Dean,

In answer to your question about keeping tube/bow kite on the ice/snow. I use a sand bag (or heavy wet snow) when I kite alone and I have no wind shelter, I plant the kite nose into the wind, with a sand bag on the wing tip farthest from where I will be when launching. Lines are laid out 90° (or perpendicular) to the wind. Starting at 90° to the wind, ready to go, skis on, I put some tension on the lines and gradually walk or skate up wind. This will rotate the kite, you can give a few tugs on the bar to get wind into the canopy. As you rotate the kite it should stand up on one wing tip and you can dump the sand bag by putting more tension on the bar. The kite should end up in a standard launch position, (without the helper). In some cases (light wind) it may take some jockeying to dump the sand bag.

Solo landing in a big wind is a different story. Usually I have an ATV and I bring the kite down on it's wind tip and hook the CL onto the ATV and than go retrieve the kite. But this can also be done very easily with bow kite using an ice screw.

Many times I just bring the kite down & dump as close to the best wind shadow I can find. This can be an ATV or Car or near shore areas. My trickiest method is to bring my bow kite down and hook the bridle line onto the handle bars of the ATV, works like a charm.

If you are on a snowboard, you do most of this with the board off.

[Dean Rizer]

Steve and Tom, really helpful comments many thanks! I'm convinced that the closed foil option would not be my best choice for most of the launches I ride from during the summer but those lofty, jumps in Padre were certianly impressive. Kind of like the ones I saw you doing 3 years ago Steve. Only you had a 7m and the winds were gusting into the 40s. You and only one other person gave it a go, impressive, especially from an OG! I'm still up for a demo ride down there. Tom, self landing an LEI in windy conditions on glare ice or hard pack has been challenging. Like chasing a wild horse that will kick....hard. I hadn't considered using my ice screw for landing. On water my T3s will quietly park in the launch position when the bar is released. Makes sense this might work on ice. Hooking the bridle onto your ATV sounds like a quick and easy landing solution. No ATV's or snowmobiles on Calhoun. Do you think a stationary icefisherman would mind if I temporarly "hooked" him while landing?

[Tom L]

Dean,
I always carry a screw when I'm on the ice. For self landing thay come in handy. Pretty easy to park a bow (in the launch position), put in a screw with a snap on it, put the CL in the snap, than walk over and retrieve the kite. You can also tension the power strap so the kite is in a nice calm attidude and won't jump around. Not fail safe, but sometimes may be the only choice.

For this purpose I use a short screw (4") with folding handle, and a rubber furniture leg cap over the end, and keep it in my jacket pocket.

[Dean Rizer]

Tom thanks. I always have carried an ice screw and used for landing only after the kite was flagged or in the LEI down, 180 degrees from wind direction position. Always possibility of relaunch and in spring tough on leading edge fabric. I haven't seen an ice screw with a folding crank, where did you find that?

[Tom L]

The brand is Grivel, purchased at REI. Not sure if they carry them now. Available on the web though.

[Nathan B]

not much of a time line here , But if your up for a road trip .
http://nwkite.com/forums/t-11577.html&s ... aa1bb29434