tighe and others,
everytime i read posts on this forum (lakawa), kiteforum and chicago forums, i hear the same things over and over again about problems that occur.
you could copy and paste so many of these posts and just put a different location in each one and it's probably happened in each of our cities.
Tighe,
i'e been thinking for some time now to invite you...V from chicago...and others who might want to meet and spend a day or 2 and hash out the concerns we have here in the midwest for our riding spots.
I really see 2 main objectives.
1) Keep riders and the general public safe.
2) Keep our access to launches open...forever.
it seems most issues can be covered under these 2 objectives. Solving the problems though isn't going to be easy.
it appears that some kind of "formal" guidelines, rules, regulations may make sense going forward.
this way, if problems arise, there can be consequences for riders actions if they persist.
this way, if problems arise, it can give the individual confronting another person the ability to place the "blame" on the agreed upon regulations instead of having to fend off someone's attitude and making it personal.
it seems logical to take all our experiences, knowledge and come up with a proactive plan throughout our entire area and have common guidelines.
policing ourselves will go much further than having somone else who has no kiting interest decide to police us instead.
tighe,
let me know what you think. madison might be a good in between spot and if there's wind, we can ride here or close by.
our house would be open to you and a few others for sure.
others...please make suggestions. thanks for your time.
Midwest kiteboarding rules and regulations
Moderator: MK
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toyletbowl
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:19 pm
- Location: madison ,wi...planet earth
Midwest kiteboarding rules and regulations
bob
kiteridersllc.com
madtown, wi. usa
planet earth.
kiteridersllc.com
madtown, wi. usa
planet earth.
Like the skiers code or how MORC (Minnesota Off-Road Cyclists) or IMBA (International Mountain Biking Association) regulate trail access. I think these groups might be an example to follow.
http://www.morcmtb.org/
http://www.imba.com/
http://www.morcmtb.org/
http://www.imba.com/
Slingshot Kiteboarding/Midwest Mountaineering Regional Team Rider
Bob,
I think that'd be great. I would love to return to Madison, and hopefully ride. I fully agree that by being proactive and having an organization committed to safety prior to an accident, we will be in a much better position to resolve any issues that come up.
Some random thoughts:
Do we want to talk to Chris and Claudia at PASA and see how they may be able to assist?
Are we thinking regional chapter for establishment of guidelines and strength in numbers, but local chapters to self police and to impliment?
Wouldn't it make sense to tie the promotion and or events into this activity?
September is looking better for me and a better chance for wind. You want to through something on the calender? I know a few others up here will be real interested to attend as well. It might end up being the Midwest Kiteboarding Safety Summit.
Yes Chris good suggestions. Those organizations seem to be doing some good things.
I think that'd be great. I would love to return to Madison, and hopefully ride. I fully agree that by being proactive and having an organization committed to safety prior to an accident, we will be in a much better position to resolve any issues that come up.
Some random thoughts:
Do we want to talk to Chris and Claudia at PASA and see how they may be able to assist?
Are we thinking regional chapter for establishment of guidelines and strength in numbers, but local chapters to self police and to impliment?
Wouldn't it make sense to tie the promotion and or events into this activity?
September is looking better for me and a better chance for wind. You want to through something on the calender? I know a few others up here will be real interested to attend as well. It might end up being the Midwest Kiteboarding Safety Summit.
Yes Chris good suggestions. Those organizations seem to be doing some good things.
Tighe
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toyletbowl
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:19 pm
- Location: madison ,wi...planet earth
sorry if the above looks all mucked up, but i don't know how to quote certain sentences and respond to each.Tighe wrote:Bob,
I think that'd be great. I would love to return to Madison, and hopefully ride. I fully agree that by being proactive and having an organization committed to safety prior to an accident, we will be in a much better position to resolve any issues that come up.
Some random thoughts:
Do we want to talk to Chris and Claudia at PASA and see how they may be able to assist?
yes...any assistance would be appreciated. i'd also like to look at iko to see what they have to offer.
Are we thinking regional chapter for establishment of guidelines and strength in numbers, but local chapters to self police and to impliment?
yes...agree also that each location will have unique requirements, and a regional chapter will give additional credibility and clout. good one.
Wouldn't it make sense to tie the promotion and or events into this activity?
sure...anything in mind?
September is looking better for me and a better chance for wind. You want to through something on the calender?
cool...september would also work better for me. august is pretty much shot. let's look at mid september and see if some dates make sense.
I know a few others up here will be real interested to attend as well. It might end up being the Midwest Kiteboarding Safety Summit.
funny you should say safety summit. i was talking to a friend the other day and used almost those exact words.
Yes Chris good suggestions. Those organizations seem to be doing some good things.
bob
bob
kiteridersllc.com
madtown, wi. usa
planet earth.
kiteridersllc.com
madtown, wi. usa
planet earth.
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SCOTT RIDOUT
- Posts: 651
- Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 12:45 pm
- Location: CHAMPLIN, MINNESOTA
This I think can turn out to be a really touchy subject, I don't think it's possible to enforce any kind of rules or REGULATIONS on a community unless you first have the local authority involved and behind you 100%, how would you tell a newcomer that shows up on a beach that they cannot kite there, if they are really intent on kiting in that location? You would have to post signs at the beaches which would take the local authorities to be involved. I think it's a great idea and that most people with common sense would obide by rules but there's always those few who will buck the system, and if there isn't anything other than someone telling someone else that they can't kite there well it doesn't seem like it would work? I don't like playing the devils advocate here but it's starting to sound like some does need to. Sooner or later the DNR or Sherrif's department or someone will have to be pulled into this. I spoke with a DNR guy about 3 weeks ago at Malmo, he was at the boat launch, I was talking to him about the kiters, and he had mentioned that a few swimmers were concerned about the amount of traffic the area was getting. The swimmer evidently mentioned that there little kids were scared of the big kites, interesting I said, I have never heard anything like that before. So I was quick to mention how trashed the place was all the time, broken bottles in the water garbage on the shore ect...I also mentioned to him how it seems like the kiters and windsurfers are always cleaning up the area's before we get out to kite and he said he noticed that! Wow a DNR guy saying he noticed how we have been picking up the place and Reddy, awesome. I was out at Reddy a few weeks ago and Eric P was just coming back from a walk down the beach line and said he had picked up TWO 30 Gallon garbage bags of crap that morning, Kudo's to Eric man, thats what we should be doing as a group, taking care of our kiting area's, and on top of that self Policing our own people!
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toyletbowl
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:19 pm
- Location: madison ,wi...planet earth
scott.
no worries on being the devils advocate. at the same time, i agree with you.
i see the following as an example of what could take place.
the purpose would be to put general rules in place. keep it simple and just have a few simple rules/guidelines.
nothing saying that people can't ride.
then, if rules/guidleines are broken...you go to step one. try to educate. keep the peace. work them through it.
then if the rules/guidleines are still broken time and time again...go to the next levels of consequensces for repeat offenders.
personally, i don't see this at all as limiting access in the beginning unless local crews deam a launch area expert launching or assisted launching only.
all this can be done under the radar mostly with having the DNR or others at our disposal in extreme circumstances.
no worries on being the devils advocate. at the same time, i agree with you.
i see the following as an example of what could take place.
the purpose would be to put general rules in place. keep it simple and just have a few simple rules/guidelines.
nothing saying that people can't ride.
then, if rules/guidleines are broken...you go to step one. try to educate. keep the peace. work them through it.
then if the rules/guidleines are still broken time and time again...go to the next levels of consequensces for repeat offenders.
personally, i don't see this at all as limiting access in the beginning unless local crews deam a launch area expert launching or assisted launching only.
all this can be done under the radar mostly with having the DNR or others at our disposal in extreme circumstances.
bob
kiteridersllc.com
madtown, wi. usa
planet earth.
kiteridersllc.com
madtown, wi. usa
planet earth.
I know i've mentioned this before....but
check out the AccessFund that a lot of rock climbers belong to.
they have a model that might be worth retooling towards kiteboarding!
http://www.accessfund.org/
- kris
check out the AccessFund that a lot of rock climbers belong to.
they have a model that might be worth retooling towards kiteboarding!
http://www.accessfund.org/
- kris
Hand-outs?
How about a hand-out to give to by-standers at the launch to inform them about the various hazards of observing kiting too closely? You could print them at home off the web-site. Don't get close, under the lines, downwind from launch, etc...my 2 cents...JN
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steveb
- Posts: 2146
- Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:31 pm
- Location: sblain@frontiernet.net
It's hard when you want to get out on the water, but I think the only realistic thing is for experienced guys to make sure newbies know the danger and help them.
Realistically a new kiter turning up at the beach and no one saying "hi" and talking to them is pretty lame.If we don't do it it shall become much harder to get on the water when lakes are closed to us,so 10 minutes invested now will save hours of driving time spent later.
I haven't cruised the site enough so I don't know if we have a suggested "safety rules" posted somewhere. If not maybe we should and maybe everyone should contribute.
I agree with Scott and Bob that whatever we do should be done under the radar ,raising concerns to any authority would not be a good move a bit like a peadophile telling a cop he's feeling horny..Additionally while it's a gas to ride together ( and safer) maybe we should scout more lakes and try not to overcrowd the old standards.
Realistically a new kiter turning up at the beach and no one saying "hi" and talking to them is pretty lame.If we don't do it it shall become much harder to get on the water when lakes are closed to us,so 10 minutes invested now will save hours of driving time spent later.
I haven't cruised the site enough so I don't know if we have a suggested "safety rules" posted somewhere. If not maybe we should and maybe everyone should contribute.
I agree with Scott and Bob that whatever we do should be done under the radar ,raising concerns to any authority would not be a good move a bit like a peadophile telling a cop he's feeling horny..Additionally while it's a gas to ride together ( and safer) maybe we should scout more lakes and try not to overcrowd the old standards.
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Dean Rizer
- Posts: 319
- Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:52 pm
It looks like there are those who are totally uninformed and have no base of knowlege with which to make a safe kiting decision regarding rigging, launching choices, launching techniques etc. and there are those who are informed and choose to make unsafe kiting decisions.
The uniformed can be helped on the beach based upon their current level of ability, or given a copy of a Kite manual or the location of a teaching clinic. Usually the 1st 5-10 pages cover the hazzards of kiting from rigging, to launching saftey, to weather conditions, to ability. The uniformed can also be encouraged to attend a kiting 101 class that carefully covers all kiting saftey issues.
Experienced riders who are endangering kiters and non kiters should be gently reminded to make better choices. This spring I saw a hot shot team rider jump in 3" of water 2' from the beach. He miscalculated and nearly decapitated one of our own who was walking his kite onto the beach. He was reminded, I think, that he was an unsafe pedophile.
It is all about choices, the more we know about the sport relative to our own abilities, the better/ safer choices we will make resulting in continued access to public beach areas. Sounds like public education message dosn't it? In a way it is.
The uniformed can be helped on the beach based upon their current level of ability, or given a copy of a Kite manual or the location of a teaching clinic. Usually the 1st 5-10 pages cover the hazzards of kiting from rigging, to launching saftey, to weather conditions, to ability. The uniformed can also be encouraged to attend a kiting 101 class that carefully covers all kiting saftey issues.
Experienced riders who are endangering kiters and non kiters should be gently reminded to make better choices. This spring I saw a hot shot team rider jump in 3" of water 2' from the beach. He miscalculated and nearly decapitated one of our own who was walking his kite onto the beach. He was reminded, I think, that he was an unsafe pedophile.
It is all about choices, the more we know about the sport relative to our own abilities, the better/ safer choices we will make resulting in continued access to public beach areas. Sounds like public education message dosn't it? In a way it is.
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toyletbowl
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:19 pm
- Location: madison ,wi...planet earth
dean...well said. i hope you don't mind, but i copied part of your post on the chicago forum. i also added some to it and will post if below here.
The following was just posted by dean rizer on the lakawa forum. thanks dean...i couldn't have said it better myself. i edited some of it out, but the following seems to apply well to this thread now...
from dean:
-----------------------
It looks like there are those who are totally uninformed and have no base of knowlege with which to make a safe kiting decision regarding rigging, launching choices, launching techniques etc. and there are those who are informed and choose to make unsafe kiting decisions.
Experienced riders who are endangering kiters and non kiters should be gently reminded to make better choices. This spring I saw a hot shot team rider jump in 3" of water 2' from the beach. He miscalculated and nearly decapitated one of our own who was walking his kite onto the beach.
------------------------
thinking about what dean wrote...really, there's 4 types of riders.
1) uneducated (newbies) and gives a shit.
2) educated (experienced) and gives a shit.
3) uneducated and doesn't give a shit. (dgas)
4) educated and doesn't give a shit. (dgas)
most of us around the area fall into #2. we're care and we know what we're doing on the water. yea, we'll all do stupid things now and then, but try to practice safety as much as possible.
most newbies fall under #1. they can be easily trained and taught to follow the rules as needed.
#3 and #4's though are the ones who create the problems. if they don't give a shit, they probably never will unless something bad happens to them. and they can create incredible problems for others on the water or beaches. v and mike...sounds like these are the types of riders creating problems at montrose and other areas?
fast forward 5 years from now.
every beach is restricted and you must be certified to ride. no card...no riding.
every rider must register boards with the DNR and have stickers on them.
every rider must wear a life preserver.
every rider must go to yearly safety meetings to reregister for the next season.
if we don't self police and help out each other when guys are doing things wrong, the above could be a realistic scenario. let's hope not.
to mike and v and west...so to get a little back on topic, do you guys think it's a good idea to meet in september to discuss this further?
The following was just posted by dean rizer on the lakawa forum. thanks dean...i couldn't have said it better myself. i edited some of it out, but the following seems to apply well to this thread now...
from dean:
-----------------------
It looks like there are those who are totally uninformed and have no base of knowlege with which to make a safe kiting decision regarding rigging, launching choices, launching techniques etc. and there are those who are informed and choose to make unsafe kiting decisions.
Experienced riders who are endangering kiters and non kiters should be gently reminded to make better choices. This spring I saw a hot shot team rider jump in 3" of water 2' from the beach. He miscalculated and nearly decapitated one of our own who was walking his kite onto the beach.
------------------------
thinking about what dean wrote...really, there's 4 types of riders.
1) uneducated (newbies) and gives a shit.
2) educated (experienced) and gives a shit.
3) uneducated and doesn't give a shit. (dgas)
4) educated and doesn't give a shit. (dgas)
most of us around the area fall into #2. we're care and we know what we're doing on the water. yea, we'll all do stupid things now and then, but try to practice safety as much as possible.
most newbies fall under #1. they can be easily trained and taught to follow the rules as needed.
#3 and #4's though are the ones who create the problems. if they don't give a shit, they probably never will unless something bad happens to them. and they can create incredible problems for others on the water or beaches. v and mike...sounds like these are the types of riders creating problems at montrose and other areas?
fast forward 5 years from now.
every beach is restricted and you must be certified to ride. no card...no riding.
every rider must register boards with the DNR and have stickers on them.
every rider must wear a life preserver.
every rider must go to yearly safety meetings to reregister for the next season.
if we don't self police and help out each other when guys are doing things wrong, the above could be a realistic scenario. let's hope not.
to mike and v and west...so to get a little back on topic, do you guys think it's a good idea to meet in september to discuss this further?
bob
kiteridersllc.com
madtown, wi. usa
planet earth.
kiteridersllc.com
madtown, wi. usa
planet earth.
Dean Rizer says:
Dean, I am not sure who you are talking about here, but I know that I sometimes do moves close to the beach, including loops. I am also aware that it might not be the safest thing to do and honestly, I have done my fair share of bone headed moves, so I would like to sincerely apologize to everyone on this forum about my behavior if I made you feel unsafe. I try to observe all the safety rules, but I sometimes get caught in the moment and blank out on what is happening around me.
The reason why I am in the shallows doing some crazy stuff sometimes is because if I mess up really bad, I have a better chance of making it back. I knocked the wind out of myself once and if I wasn't able to stand, it could've been ugly. But I make sure that winds are side shore, or that there is a comfortable buffer to the beach. I can't say that I have a perfect safety record though.
I would also like to let everyone know that you can always talk to me directly on the beach. Maybe I can seem a little arogant on the water so it might not be pleasant to talk to me, but it's constructive criticism and everyone would be better off in the end. So, please talk to me on the beach and I'll listen.
Denis
Wipika Team Rider
...This spring I saw a hot shot team rider jump in 3" of water 2' from the beach. He miscalculated and nearly decapitated one of our own who was walking his kite onto the beach. He was reminded, I think, that he was an unsafe pedophile.
Dean, I am not sure who you are talking about here, but I know that I sometimes do moves close to the beach, including loops. I am also aware that it might not be the safest thing to do and honestly, I have done my fair share of bone headed moves, so I would like to sincerely apologize to everyone on this forum about my behavior if I made you feel unsafe. I try to observe all the safety rules, but I sometimes get caught in the moment and blank out on what is happening around me.
The reason why I am in the shallows doing some crazy stuff sometimes is because if I mess up really bad, I have a better chance of making it back. I knocked the wind out of myself once and if I wasn't able to stand, it could've been ugly. But I make sure that winds are side shore, or that there is a comfortable buffer to the beach. I can't say that I have a perfect safety record though.
I would also like to let everyone know that you can always talk to me directly on the beach. Maybe I can seem a little arogant on the water so it might not be pleasant to talk to me, but it's constructive criticism and everyone would be better off in the end. So, please talk to me on the beach and I'll listen.
Denis
Wipika Team Rider
(================P-</
Sponsored by Slingshot Kiteboarding
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Dean Rizer
- Posts: 319
- Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:52 pm
Bob, I don't mind being quoted, hope it's helpful. Denis, I wasn't refering to you. This was at the north flats, a kite mfgr was doing demos. A team rider almost took Steve's head off. Steve indicated his displeasure, the guy apologized, and it was over. He even bought Steve a beer....or was it a keg?
The things I saw you guys doing at Holy were amazing. That was an entirely different situation. Most of the riders were expert or pro. The tricks were difficult but no one was indangered. There were no swimmers or windsurfers, the launch was tricky, small area, mudd, glass, catcus, 6" depth 300 yards out, and on shore winds. Launching advice was given to first time visitors. Intermediates moved upwind quickly and got out of the way. Hopefully If I made someone nervous I would have been told.
This sport is about fun, tricks, boosting, and that feeling of pushing past one's comfort level. Safe riding is my responsibility, not Tighe's, not launch site signs, not yours etc. As a newcomer I invested 1/4 of the money I would spend on a kite on a saftey course. I have a very good idea as to what is safe, and I have a reasonable idea as to my current skill level. As my instructor pointed out in this sport "there is no room for Oops". , but as I have already learned there are always those unexpected surprises. Hopefully I have the knowlege to deal with them.
Fortunatly or unfortunally when really stupid choices are made, as in the recent kite tube flying accidents, Mr Darwin steps in and issues a free one way tickett out of the gene pool.
The things I saw you guys doing at Holy were amazing. That was an entirely different situation. Most of the riders were expert or pro. The tricks were difficult but no one was indangered. There were no swimmers or windsurfers, the launch was tricky, small area, mudd, glass, catcus, 6" depth 300 yards out, and on shore winds. Launching advice was given to first time visitors. Intermediates moved upwind quickly and got out of the way. Hopefully If I made someone nervous I would have been told.
This sport is about fun, tricks, boosting, and that feeling of pushing past one's comfort level. Safe riding is my responsibility, not Tighe's, not launch site signs, not yours etc. As a newcomer I invested 1/4 of the money I would spend on a kite on a saftey course. I have a very good idea as to what is safe, and I have a reasonable idea as to my current skill level. As my instructor pointed out in this sport "there is no room for Oops". , but as I have already learned there are always those unexpected surprises. Hopefully I have the knowlege to deal with them.
Fortunatly or unfortunally when really stupid choices are made, as in the recent kite tube flying accidents, Mr Darwin steps in and issues a free one way tickett out of the gene pool.