Question for all you Docs

Tighe · Post by **Tighe** » Tue May 30, 2006 6:22 pm

I know a lot of you are in the Medical profession or know a lot more about bodies than I...here's my question:
What causes soreness/stiffness?
On Sunday I rode for literally close to 7 hours and have felt really good, better than usual, ever since. Normally I ride for a few hours and feel it the next day, so I'm really interested to find out what made this different. As most of you know I haven't been riding as much and definitely am not in my peak condition, so this really baffles me.

Here's the scoop
I ate: Bagel, coffee, some water 9am
Poweraid drink just before hitting the water (like normal)noonish
Cliff Bar around 3pm
Powerbar around 5 (not that unusual)
Medium amount of water all day.

then post session;
ribs, steak, walleye, salad, baked potato and a pitcher of lemonaide

So what was the key ingredient? The steak was fairly unusual as well as the lemonaide, though I doubt that would do it.
If I could do this with each session, I'd do it. It is just so strange. I felt a few aches after coming off the water in my shoulder but even those were gone by morning. I expected to be hobbling around the next day.

Any insight into this would be appreciated.

steveb · Post by **steveb** » Tue May 30, 2006 7:55 pm

Tighe, I wonder if the warmth helped your muscles be more supple?.
I too want to find your secret!. Got to be something better than Ibuprofen.

cdelp · Post by **cdelp** » Tue May 30, 2006 9:36 pm

A fairly high percentage of my patients are sports-medicine related. Your answer is complex, but it helps to start with the cause of the soreness. Muscle soreness is muscle damage, either the microscopic kind that is a sign of rebuilding (good thing), or scaled up, worse damage from too much strain on the tissue. "Too Much" strain doesn't necessarily mean working it harder or longer though. As Steveb alluded to, warmth, or warming up for a session can effect it, as can the torque of your body position. Small changes in how relaxed you are make big changes in how you hold your body and the strain on it. If you are a little tense from anything from cold, prior pain, new equipment, thinking about something else, it can make a huge difference.
Stretching has not been shown to significantly prevent injuries but warming up really has.
I am a big fan of a healthy diet, but a lot of money has been spent by sports teams to study how you can make an athlete recover faster, and the bottom line is that suplements/diet can help you build, but not recover significantly faster, so the bagel is out. Hydration though, is key.

So in your case, it really could have been a zen thing. In tune with your body, relaxed, equipment tuned, warmed up. Were you?

Or it could be the steriods you have been taking. Yep, I'll bet that's it.

Terry Dunklee · Post by **Terry Dunklee** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:35 pm

OK Tighe --- fess up. What drugs are you taking? First this dream like day of effortless kiting and now feeling no pain. Our suspicions are up.

The short and sweet answer as to what cause the pain and stiffness the following day(s) is that we really don't know. For years it was thought that a build up of lactic acid in the muscle was responsible for the stiffness and pain a day or two later but lactic acid is cleared rapidly and while it may be partially responsible for soreness during or immediately after exercise it appears to be gone by the following day. Current theories are that the muscle suffers microscopic tears or simply swells from irritation. An inflammatory reaction occurs that increases swelling , irritation and increases the migration of white blood cell into the area all of which are part of the healing process. Over the course of several days the muscle heals and supposedly is somewhat stronger than before unless the muscle is not given sufficient time to heal or is subject to overuse too frequently.

Vitamin C has been thought in the past to lessen the inflammation and subsequent pain and stiffness but studies have not confirmed it's usefulness. You also filter it rapidly through your kidneys so large doses are peed out quickly. Your pitcher of lemonade may have had signifcant amounts of vit C. Since that is one of the things that you did differently you could do a study of one and try the pitcher of lemonade again next time you have an extended session. Let me know how it works.

Vitamin E has also been looked at to reduce the symptoms but results have not been convincing.

The real key as to why you feel no pain or stiffness may be in your other note. It sounds like you were in a relaxed, comfortable effortless kiting situation. You may not have suffered enough muscle tension and injury to initiate the inflammatory process. I had a similar experience after 4 hours of 5.2 windsurfing on Mille Lacs when the wind was steady and I felt relaxed, balanced almost effortless sailing. I was amazed at how good I felt the next day.

Hopefully more days like these soon.

Tighe · Post by **Tighe** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:46 pm

thanks, some of that is rather surprising.

I definitely felt dialed. I have been riding that same kite, my 12m bow, for the last 5 or 6 months, so yeah I know it pretty well (BTW it is the only kite you will ever need..period). The conditions were the most consistent ever, so that may have helped, and it was 90 some degrees. Maybe it was a psychological thing. I was eurphoric and in some other world. Something was going through my body that wasn't normal. But I don't think the experience alone couldn't have done it, cause I've had great sessions before and I usually end up exhausted and sore the next day or the day after. Also, others who rode in the same conditions and seemed as dialed haven't noticed anything different than past big sessions.

The interesting thing is there were a few pains immediately after coming off the water and I thought I was going to hurt the next day. Even after waking up in the car after the ride down, my neck hurt ...all of which was gone in the morning. I barely had enough strength to go up and down stairs that night, but bounded up them the next day. Weird.

hmm.

Well I guess we'll have to do a longitudinal study this summer. I volunteer to be the subject and will participate in the testing at Reddy and subject myself to the food at Carlsona every weekend so that the data is statistically significant ...for the research of course. Anyone else want to be a lab rat?

Thanks again for the info. Any other thoughts would be appreciated.

Tom L · Post by **Tom L** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:03 am

Tighe,

You have to know......it's the bow kite....they cure everything.

Tighe · Post by **Tighe** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:43 am

I knew that was coming Tom. I am truly a believer now. Though I don't think it is reason for this experience.

I think I'm going to try the Lemonaide thing.

One other thing I remembered was I ate quite a few radishes at dinner. Also rather unique for me.

thanks for detailed analysis Terry. looks like you posted the same time as my last post.

thanks all

Eric P · Post by **Eric P** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:45 am

Tom - you might not be too far from the truth. Watching Tighe that day, he never had to work at getting the kite to the edge of the window. No strugle, no hard digging of the edge. I know I was digging deep to get my kite to the edge after a jump. Also, I don't think Tighe screwed up all day. Not a single bad wipe out. I think it was more the easy riding conditions and the bow kite Tighe. Of coarse, 6 to 8 hours of riding should make anyone sore. Are you sure your not superman or something, in disguise.

Tighe · Post by **Tighe** » Wed May 31, 2006 8:03 am

It was a super dialed day, though I think it was for many. I also am not going all out like a lot of you guys. I hurt just watching some of your crashes....and I also feel your joy when you stick those incredible moves. I just don't get it. You'ld think I'd at least be stiff the next day from fatique, even if I didn't strain anything.

I'm starting to think it was a lot of right conditions, great steady wind, good hydration and food, and more than anything else an experience that was so grand that it triggered something in my body that healed or numbed or rejuvenated every cell.

It's a curiousity. We'll see if it ever happens again.

later,
clark

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Wed May 31, 2006 8:37 am

Great thread!!! Tighe, might be time to re-visit that great book you recommended to me years ago by Echart Tolle, The Power of Now. Seems like this could give the greatest insight to our attention and growth of pain, or our release of it. There's a natural law of the universe that "what we put attention to grows stonger", and then there's the second law of thermodynamics, or entropy, that says energy disperses. In your case, you put so much attention to gratitude for the day and the gift of the present moment...you left no room to grow the pain. I'm sure if you would have tried hard enough to grow some pain and complaint, you could have rediscovered some of your soreness. Your account of the day and testimony from those who witnessed your "in the zone" riding contributed to more of us having a pain free day. I've had several days after severe riding yield peace without pain, simply from holding in the beauty and energy of the experience. There's a stepping out of time and our attachments to previous conditions, from attachment to our sense of what was or should be. It truly is a pain free zone, perhaps most eloquently illustrated by some of the returning amputee soldiers interviewed on 60 Minutes this past Sunday.

steveb · Post by **steveb** » Wed May 31, 2006 10:16 pm

personally I'm still bloody sore!.

JRN · Post by **JRN** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:36 am

For future reference: Bow kite/check; Lemonade/check; Head in NOW/
check. I'm glad you guys have finally revealed the secret! I was operating on a false premise: Beer, advil, and high anxiety.

Jim N

Stroh · Post by **Stroh** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:45 am

Steve you are not the only one. my abbs are blue from my unpadded sprederbar rubbing so much. (equiptment problem) but I can still feel it in my legs.. stairs are difficult right now.
Tighe is just not human

Jon

steveb · Post by **steveb** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:30 pm

Thanks Jon that makes me feel better

ET · Post by ET » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:47 pm

Great thread. I need to add my 7 letters: STRETCH. As an old marathoner (and still recovering from a serious multi-bone wrist fracture from years ago), the art of Stretching is a good one to learn and really loosens up the fiddle strings for a day of activity.

I also found that giving up the lumberjack omelet and triple order of bacon when downing your third bloody mary can keep the fire from dousing.

ET

Nancy · Post by **Nancy** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:12 am

Sounds like you kept the muscles loaded with fuel/carbs (bagel, Power-stuff)and stayed hydrated. Did you eat alot of carbs the day(s) before? Being so relaxed you wouldn't surpass your lactate threshold (where lactic acid builds up)... you probably didn't feel much of the isometric burn while riding. Were you riding "guilt-free", ie no other commitments that day/evening?
Ribs, steak AND walleye??!! All that protein should help your muscles build for upcoming sessions!!
I was not quite in your same celestial zone (I still ride with some newbie tension like the JRN program: beer, Advil and high anxiety!), but I did have a great weekend on the water!!

Tighe · Post by **Tighe** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:19 am

No no carb loading the previous day. Bagel for breakfast, not sure what or if I had lunch, then a bag of Sun Chips and 2 brats and a salad for dinner. Didn't have any obligations the night of, which is quite rare. I totally lost myself out there. The last few days all the good has gone. All the normal aches and pains have returned. Mornings feel stiff, etc. If I could figure out what it was that worked and package it, I'd be a rich man.

One other interesting thing I did think of is that I started the session in a wetsuit and was boiling inside it. So I'm sure that loosened everything up. Then the rest of the session was in shorts, but I wasn't going in much so essentially I was in 90 degree air all day.

gotta love it. I want more.

LAKAWA

Question for all you Docs

Question for all you Docs

The Power of "Now"

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