I plan to get my first snowboard this winter and use it primarily for kiting on the lakes. The only time I have been on one was for a lesson at Trollhaugen earlier this year so I really have very little knowledge and experience with one. What should I look for in a board and bindings, or is there anything I should be sure to avoid? I haven't been able to find much information that is useful for a kiter. I'm not sure how well I will do with one so I am not looking to spend a lot of money.
Thanks,
Mike
What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
Moderator: MK
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
Flow bindings are probably the easiest to get in an out of for snow kiting, I have been using them for years and love them, as far as a board being your a beginner, just about any snowboard will work, when you get better your choices may change as to what you will look for in a board, helmet, elbow pads and knee pads are highly recommended, nothing worse than getting pulled over while still hanging on to the bar and landing on your elbows. Take some lessons if you can.
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
I kind of like my Flow "Flight 2's" but they are not the end all in the binding world. I still like the stiffness/feel of my super cheap Lamar "MX25's" that are on my cambered board and one of my rockered boards. I purchased Flows because it was recommended that I put them on the SwitchBlade board.
Board wise, as I said above, I have two 2009 cambered 5150 "Stroke"/ Morrow "RV" (same board) that I love. They are beat to hell but still no mechanical or delam issues. I am actually impressed that these boards are still going with my 220lbs of weight beating them up. On the hill or out kiting, they have never failed me.
I also have two 2011 rockered 5150 "Stroke's" with Flow "Flight 2's" on them. The rockered boards are just a perfect fit for kiting terrain.
As you can see from my board selection, I like cheap - though I buy enough of the same to have bought a premium board almost twice over. But when you are exploring the unexplored, you will find rocks, posts, and wire. It just feels so good to say "that's gong to be a great battle scar on this POS 5150" when you feel the tell tale scrapecrunch of a boulder buried in the snow. On a nice Lib-Tec, you would have a different thought followed by a warm sensation running down your legs.
Board wise, just go twin tip. Go wide if your feet are size 11 or larger. Regular width is fine for those with size 10 or less. Wide is nice for some more float too. I like to go with the biggest size board that my weight could handle on the hill. For me that is a 164cm in the 5150 "Stroke" and the Morrow "RV". Wide and long helps in deep powder and the grass I like to kite in. More float keeps you out of the deep stuff and will keep you away from whatever is lurking below the snow when you are where no one has kited before.
I would like to hear others thoughts as to whether anyone thinks a smaller or larger board than normal is good for kiting.
Board wise, as I said above, I have two 2009 cambered 5150 "Stroke"/ Morrow "RV" (same board) that I love. They are beat to hell but still no mechanical or delam issues. I am actually impressed that these boards are still going with my 220lbs of weight beating them up. On the hill or out kiting, they have never failed me.
I also have two 2011 rockered 5150 "Stroke's" with Flow "Flight 2's" on them. The rockered boards are just a perfect fit for kiting terrain.
As you can see from my board selection, I like cheap - though I buy enough of the same to have bought a premium board almost twice over. But when you are exploring the unexplored, you will find rocks, posts, and wire. It just feels so good to say "that's gong to be a great battle scar on this POS 5150" when you feel the tell tale scrapecrunch of a boulder buried in the snow. On a nice Lib-Tec, you would have a different thought followed by a warm sensation running down your legs.
Board wise, just go twin tip. Go wide if your feet are size 11 or larger. Regular width is fine for those with size 10 or less. Wide is nice for some more float too. I like to go with the biggest size board that my weight could handle on the hill. For me that is a 164cm in the 5150 "Stroke" and the Morrow "RV". Wide and long helps in deep powder and the grass I like to kite in. More float keeps you out of the deep stuff and will keep you away from whatever is lurking below the snow when you are where no one has kited before.
I would like to hear others thoughts as to whether anyone thinks a smaller or larger board than normal is good for kiting.
Last edited by Matt V on Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
Mike, I chatted with Tighe and he also recommended the Flows. I tried them out (in someone's living room) and they were super simple to get in an out of. Considering how often I have seen snowboarders sitting on their butts monkeying with bindings, I say it's worth a try. Another thing he said to pay attention to was the sidecut radius. You want a larger number. Most snowboards look to be between 7-9M. I grabbed some boots and a 165cm board (on the long side for me, but it's got an 8.9M radius) for super cheap, just hunting for the right bindings myself. Seriously thinking about these:
http://www.evo.com/outlet-shop/snowboar ... e-asc.aspx
I'll be going to the bunny hill, etc, before I ever try this with a kite. MK also recommended a lesson.
http://www.evo.com/outlet-shop/snowboar ... e-asc.aspx
I'll be going to the bunny hill, etc, before I ever try this with a kite. MK also recommended a lesson.
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
I should have elaborated why I do not think Flows are the best, so here you go.
The back entry is made for getting into the bindings from a standing position. In this position, I kind of feel that it is more of a reach to get to the back of the heel to lock the Flows than to get to the top of the instep to ratchet conventional bindings. Thus Flows wind up being more of a reach, though they only have 1 click to lock making your reach for less time.
They really become a problem to me when you are siting down and you need to get into or out of them. With the heel latch on the back and the back needing to swing down, they can be exceedingly difficult to get out of when you are in this horizontal position. This is because the ground is there to stop the back from swinging away. This most often occurs when the wind has died and you are going to pack it up but cannot get back up into the vertical standing position.
You will figure out a way to get around this eventually, but there is just no perfect snowkiting binding out there that I have seen. Flows are good, but they could be better.
The back entry is made for getting into the bindings from a standing position. In this position, I kind of feel that it is more of a reach to get to the back of the heel to lock the Flows than to get to the top of the instep to ratchet conventional bindings. Thus Flows wind up being more of a reach, though they only have 1 click to lock making your reach for less time.
They really become a problem to me when you are siting down and you need to get into or out of them. With the heel latch on the back and the back needing to swing down, they can be exceedingly difficult to get out of when you are in this horizontal position. This is because the ground is there to stop the back from swinging away. This most often occurs when the wind has died and you are going to pack it up but cannot get back up into the vertical standing position.
You will figure out a way to get around this eventually, but there is just no perfect snowkiting binding out there that I have seen. Flows are good, but they could be better.
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
I managed to find some K2 Cinch bindings for cheap on CL. I was told they are better at being a binding and still have the quick entry feature. It took some searching got a whole setup (boots, bindings, board) for $120.
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
Post your feelings on these half way through the season. To me, these K2 bindings look like they operate in exactly the same way as the Flows.
And good job on getting a cheap setup. Unlike on the hill, I always recommend cheap when snowboard kiting. Beat it up and smile about it.
And good job on getting a cheap setup. Unlike on the hill, I always recommend cheap when snowboard kiting. Beat it up and smile about it.
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
I will. My initial utterly inexperienced take on them is that they may be better than one set of older Flows I checked out. The Flow just has a movable back, while the Cinch has a strange mechanism that sort of opens up the whole binding. So, when you clamp down the binding with the quick release, the top strap is clamping down also. There are two straps that are fully adjustable just like any other binding. When locked, they don't seem to allow any movement at all.
Something I'll still need to sort out is a little bit of movement I'm getting between the binding and the board - like a little bit of jiggle. Maybe there should be some sort of rubber gasket between the mounting "puck" thing and the board? Or shorter screws maybe? I dunno.
Something I'll still need to sort out is a little bit of movement I'm getting between the binding and the board - like a little bit of jiggle. Maybe there should be some sort of rubber gasket between the mounting "puck" thing and the board? Or shorter screws maybe? I dunno.
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
It looks like your bindiings did take care of the foot "wiggle" that you have to do with Flows to get them to go snug enough to flip up the back. These should just lock on over your boot with no effort other than precise placement of your boot. But the back still needs to be flipped up and that is my issue with Flows.
These bindings look pretty serious as to to their stiffness, though you really cannot tell from a picture. Common wisdom with snowkite bindings is that you want the most flexibility possible in the binding to allow you to get into the odd positions that are common with kite powered snowboarding. That is why I suggest the Flow "Flight 2's". As Flow bindings go up in price, they seem to go up in stiffness. So fortunately, a snowkiter wants the cheap "Flight 2's" that are the bottom of the barrel and the most flexible. In fact, you really want to mate freeride (flexible) bindings made for a directional board with a twin tip freestyle board that is made for the super stiff freestyle bindings. Long story short, this gives you bi-directional board ability with a flexible binding feel for your feet/body position. But you should have no worries about your gear since you can really ride any setup with a kite.
That said, I ordered a set of Flow "Trilogy" bindings from EVO Gear because they were just so damn cheap. They should be a little stiffer than my "Flight 2's", but I intend to put them on my board with the "Switchblade" mounted on it. I think the stiffness will be welcome when kiting on glare ice with the "Switchblade". And now I will have matching "Flight 2's" on both of my rockered boards.
Movement between the plate and the board is NOT ok. If the plates are plastic, they will break due to leverage applied when they are lifted at an angle. If the plates are alumimum, they will either bend or round out the holes due to repeated impact back and forth with the sides of the screws. Aluminum plates may even be strong enough to rip out the inserts in the board.
Looseness in the fit of the binding is acceptable as long as your boot is firmly strapped down. So if the binding is a little wide, it is still ok. You just cannot have your boot move side to side inside of the binding.
These bindings look pretty serious as to to their stiffness, though you really cannot tell from a picture. Common wisdom with snowkite bindings is that you want the most flexibility possible in the binding to allow you to get into the odd positions that are common with kite powered snowboarding. That is why I suggest the Flow "Flight 2's". As Flow bindings go up in price, they seem to go up in stiffness. So fortunately, a snowkiter wants the cheap "Flight 2's" that are the bottom of the barrel and the most flexible. In fact, you really want to mate freeride (flexible) bindings made for a directional board with a twin tip freestyle board that is made for the super stiff freestyle bindings. Long story short, this gives you bi-directional board ability with a flexible binding feel for your feet/body position. But you should have no worries about your gear since you can really ride any setup with a kite.
That said, I ordered a set of Flow "Trilogy" bindings from EVO Gear because they were just so damn cheap. They should be a little stiffer than my "Flight 2's", but I intend to put them on my board with the "Switchblade" mounted on it. I think the stiffness will be welcome when kiting on glare ice with the "Switchblade". And now I will have matching "Flight 2's" on both of my rockered boards.
Movement between the plate and the board is NOT ok. If the plates are plastic, they will break due to leverage applied when they are lifted at an angle. If the plates are alumimum, they will either bend or round out the holes due to repeated impact back and forth with the sides of the screws. Aluminum plates may even be strong enough to rip out the inserts in the board.
Looseness in the fit of the binding is acceptable as long as your boot is firmly strapped down. So if the binding is a little wide, it is still ok. You just cannot have your boot move side to side inside of the binding.
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
Good stuff to know. Those Trilogy bindings are what I was going to buy ($90 new is pretty awesome), but found the K2's on CL for $40.
I don't know anything about the finer points of snowboarding, but I learn best by doing. I have a setup, and I'm going with it! I was reading about bindings for snowkiting online, and one site suggested even removing the backs. I am a skier, so I am used to hard boots and no flex bindings... maybe it won't bother me to have very little flex. I don't think my board is bidirectional, and it's pretty flexible. I'm assuming I'll want the bindings set up pretty symmetrically though for kiting.
My plan is just to stop at Hoigaard's this weekend and ask them about the mounting plates and how to fix it. Maybe the screws are just too long?
What's a Switchblade?
I don't know anything about the finer points of snowboarding, but I learn best by doing. I have a setup, and I'm going with it! I was reading about bindings for snowkiting online, and one site suggested even removing the backs. I am a skier, so I am used to hard boots and no flex bindings... maybe it won't bother me to have very little flex. I don't think my board is bidirectional, and it's pretty flexible. I'm assuming I'll want the bindings set up pretty symmetrically though for kiting.
My plan is just to stop at Hoigaard's this weekend and ask them about the mounting plates and how to fix it. Maybe the screws are just too long?
What's a Switchblade?
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
Follow this link and watch the vids on Youtube about it.
http://www.mnkiteboy.com/Switchblade.html
I have only used it here and there on glare ice when the wind was whipping the good stuff off of the ponds that I was jibin the muskrat dens around. I tried to use the board that I mounted it on at Mt. Kato last year on the really steep stuff and I kind of got scared of it. It seemed to stiffen the board up too much to have good control on a hill without a kite. But you do not really notice it or any effect on performance while kiting, other than the fact that you can have fun on glare ice.
Amazingly, you do not really need it if the ice is lacking snow but still rough. I rode snowless rough ice without the SwitchBlade for 2 years thinking I was going to rip the steel edges out of my 5150 "Stroke", but no damage ever occurred.
Since you are a skier, you will easily pickup the most important part of kitesnowboarding. This is know as "Heelside Sideslipping". Look it up on youtube and you will get some beginners instructional vids that will explain it. Basically, the heelsides sideslip is how you make the board move across the wind when you have the right power and slip down wind when you get over powered. If you do not sideslip, you get pulled over onto your face. Knowing this, you usually err on the other side, your backside. It It looks easy on the vids, but this is where you really want a butt pad when learning this on a ski hill. Not to say your backside will not get some abuse while kitesnowboarding, it just seemed like it was much less severe with a kite when I learned it for either instance.
When you have them mount the bindings, have them set it for either 15degree or 12 degree duck stance and center the stance as much as possible. Maybe make a new thread asking others where they like to set up the directional boards that they have tried to use in kitesnowboarding. I have always been on twin tips so I cannot really give you any helpful advice other than the above.
http://www.mnkiteboy.com/Switchblade.html
I have only used it here and there on glare ice when the wind was whipping the good stuff off of the ponds that I was jibin the muskrat dens around. I tried to use the board that I mounted it on at Mt. Kato last year on the really steep stuff and I kind of got scared of it. It seemed to stiffen the board up too much to have good control on a hill without a kite. But you do not really notice it or any effect on performance while kiting, other than the fact that you can have fun on glare ice.
Amazingly, you do not really need it if the ice is lacking snow but still rough. I rode snowless rough ice without the SwitchBlade for 2 years thinking I was going to rip the steel edges out of my 5150 "Stroke", but no damage ever occurred.
Since you are a skier, you will easily pickup the most important part of kitesnowboarding. This is know as "Heelside Sideslipping". Look it up on youtube and you will get some beginners instructional vids that will explain it. Basically, the heelsides sideslip is how you make the board move across the wind when you have the right power and slip down wind when you get over powered. If you do not sideslip, you get pulled over onto your face. Knowing this, you usually err on the other side, your backside. It It looks easy on the vids, but this is where you really want a butt pad when learning this on a ski hill. Not to say your backside will not get some abuse while kitesnowboarding, it just seemed like it was much less severe with a kite when I learned it for either instance.
When you have them mount the bindings, have them set it for either 15degree or 12 degree duck stance and center the stance as much as possible. Maybe make a new thread asking others where they like to set up the directional boards that they have tried to use in kitesnowboarding. I have always been on twin tips so I cannot really give you any helpful advice other than the above.
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
I just read your post out of curiosity, so take this for what it's worth.
There's a lot of stuff out there on the interweb - not all of it is good advice (including mine). Whatever you do, DON'T remove the backs from your bindings. As a beginner, you're going to spend 100% of your time riding heelside - you need those backs. I can't believe that somebody out there thought that was a good idea.
As to the "easy-entry" bindings - you're going to spend about 30 seconds of your day getting in and out of your bindings. It's not worth paying any kind of premium for it, in my humble opinion. Some people like em', but it seems to me that they're designed for people who are sick of getting off of a chair lift and buckling up every five minutes after a MN-length ski run. With kiting, you'll be locked in for hours at a time.
Here's my advice (again, for what it's worth):
1. Buy the cheapest board you can - you're going to progress and move up in the world. Any board on craigslist will do for now. Your board is going to take on some damage riding on the lakes - ice ridges, beer cans, frozen fish...it's all out there waiting for you. This doesn't mean buy the WalMart board, but any of the major board companies will produce something that will work for you.
2. Spend some time hitting the slopes between now and December - (knowing you have some kite skills) if you go out three or four times on the slopes and get the balance and turning down, you'll be able to ride on the ice (I said ride, not rip).
3. I agree with Matt - set your bindings for 12-15 degrees on each side. You'll learn that way/you'll ride that way.
Good luck!
There's a lot of stuff out there on the interweb - not all of it is good advice (including mine). Whatever you do, DON'T remove the backs from your bindings. As a beginner, you're going to spend 100% of your time riding heelside - you need those backs. I can't believe that somebody out there thought that was a good idea.
As to the "easy-entry" bindings - you're going to spend about 30 seconds of your day getting in and out of your bindings. It's not worth paying any kind of premium for it, in my humble opinion. Some people like em', but it seems to me that they're designed for people who are sick of getting off of a chair lift and buckling up every five minutes after a MN-length ski run. With kiting, you'll be locked in for hours at a time.
Here's my advice (again, for what it's worth):
1. Buy the cheapest board you can - you're going to progress and move up in the world. Any board on craigslist will do for now. Your board is going to take on some damage riding on the lakes - ice ridges, beer cans, frozen fish...it's all out there waiting for you. This doesn't mean buy the WalMart board, but any of the major board companies will produce something that will work for you.
2. Spend some time hitting the slopes between now and December - (knowing you have some kite skills) if you go out three or four times on the slopes and get the balance and turning down, you'll be able to ride on the ice (I said ride, not rip).
3. I agree with Matt - set your bindings for 12-15 degrees on each side. You'll learn that way/you'll ride that way.
Good luck!
This space for rent.
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
Wyatt is right and moreover, much more concise and to the point than I typically am. I actually did exactly what he is saying when I started out and should have given you the same advice at the beginning of this thread. Board time at our local ski hill really helped me in the beginning while my wind time was devoted to flying a trainer kite without a board.
Taking the backs off of the bindings is not something I have experience with, but I do feel it is stupid. It may work for that water kiteboard feel on powder, but snowboard boots are stiff and you just do not have the ankle movement in them like you do on the water. The backs are essential, as Wyatt has said, to how a snowboard preforms with snowboard boots. You just need a hard connection to the hard snow in order to edge safely. Safety is also a concern since if one foot should come out of a binding, the board could snap the locked in leg/knee like a chicken wing. Flows, like I said, are somewhat of a gimmick but they do work as a binding. I also agree with Wyatt that they are the best for short lift runs at Mt. Kato or my home hill. But I still like my ultra cheap Lamar "MX25" standard bindings.
Taking the backs off of the bindings is not something I have experience with, but I do feel it is stupid. It may work for that water kiteboard feel on powder, but snowboard boots are stiff and you just do not have the ankle movement in them like you do on the water. The backs are essential, as Wyatt has said, to how a snowboard preforms with snowboard boots. You just need a hard connection to the hard snow in order to edge safely. Safety is also a concern since if one foot should come out of a binding, the board could snap the locked in leg/knee like a chicken wing. Flows, like I said, are somewhat of a gimmick but they do work as a binding. I also agree with Wyatt that they are the best for short lift runs at Mt. Kato or my home hill. But I still like my ultra cheap Lamar "MX25" standard bindings.
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
Thanks for all of the advice and ideas. I just picked up a Lamar Electric 163cm with MX25 bindings at Play It Again Sports. I guess that should do the trick as I get started. I know nothing much about it but the sales guy thought that based on the stock they had it was a good choice for my size and what I planned to do with it. Let it snow!
Mike
Mike
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
I just have to say, I have been riding for at least 4 years now without backs on my bindings and I love it. It gives you the ability to really point your board like you do on the water, and straighten out that front leg. I also have very flexible and low profile boots, which I think is a great combo. Makes it feel just like riding in wakeboard boots on the water, especially in deeper snow. I just do not see the dangerous side of it, and have never felt like I was about to slip out of the bindings. I feel like I have much more freedom of movement, and will not get tweaked from being unable to get my body into the position it needs to be in for whatever is happening. Kite boarding on the snow and riding down a hill under old fashioned gravity power are two totally different things.
I think one of the most important things to think about as you progress in kiting is board weight. As the kite pulls you up, every pound you have on your feet feels like two or three as you are accelerated upwards. Look for the lightest gear you can find and you will notice that you are able to ride for longer and play harder than you could before you got the lighter board.
And try the no high backs some time, you might like it.
I think one of the most important things to think about as you progress in kiting is board weight. As the kite pulls you up, every pound you have on your feet feels like two or three as you are accelerated upwards. Look for the lightest gear you can find and you will notice that you are able to ride for longer and play harder than you could before you got the lighter board.
And try the no high backs some time, you might like it.
Eric
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
I love that there are so many opposing opinions!
Mike, where are you hitting a bunny hill?
Mike, where are you hitting a bunny hill?
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
Here you go and make sure you read into it until at least page 3. The title is "Looking for Bindings - Don't Get Flows" but should be "Backless Bindings". They go back and forth between the pros and cons, the benefits and dangers, and the failures and successes of riding backless. Lots of experimentation since when this thread was started 6 years ago or so. I am still sticking to backs on my bindings but it did remind me to kick the back adjustment out when kiting.
P.S I am on page 8 and it is still getting better,
http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2322846
On page 9, beginning with Motz sarcastic post, it gets freaking hilarious. My favorite is the "die thread, die" comment someone makes that I can see this topic being relegated to one day. I need to limit my self to a maximum of 3 posts per topic or this time vampire is going to make me late for work every day. And even stupider is that I do not have 1/8th of the experience that these guys on the kite forum thread have. Back in '05 I had not even windsurfed yet. Hope I have been more help than harm.
Matt
P.S I am on page 8 and it is still getting better,
http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2322846
On page 9, beginning with Motz sarcastic post, it gets freaking hilarious. My favorite is the "die thread, die" comment someone makes that I can see this topic being relegated to one day. I need to limit my self to a maximum of 3 posts per topic or this time vampire is going to make me late for work every day. And even stupider is that I do not have 1/8th of the experience that these guys on the kite forum thread have. Back in '05 I had not even windsurfed yet. Hope I have been more help than harm.
Matt
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
I go backless... but granted my boots are pretty stiff....
But in all seriousness..... I just cut the backs of my snowboard binders last year. I felt that my feet were held just at a little awkward angle for snowboarding and I was getting tired quick. I haven't had a chance to try it yet but I've heard good things.
But in all seriousness..... I just cut the backs of my snowboard binders last year. I felt that my feet were held just at a little awkward angle for snowboarding and I was getting tired quick. I haven't had a chance to try it yet but I've heard good things.
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
Seriously people, it is awesome. Just like I can't kite on the water anymore without my bindings, I also could not kite on the snow anymore if I was stuck in a rigid position with my board. You need to be able to point that front foot and lean back. Try it!!
Oh, and Bryce, I do not believe I have ever seen you kite with a snowboard on. That would be a great thing to see. I just think kiting with a snowboard is much more natural.
Just my two cents.
Oh, and Bryce, I do not believe I have ever seen you kite with a snowboard on. That would be a great thing to see. I just think kiting with a snowboard is much more natural.
Just my two cents.
Eric
Re: What to look for in a snowboard for kiting?
Most of the time I wait for a little bit of snow before I take out the snowboard... that can be a little rare. Snowboarding on crusty ice is not as much fun as skiing.
And you can't to tricks like this
The unhooked stuff is stuff seems to be a little easier with a snowboard. You can see to get a little more edge and pop.
And you can't to tricks like this
The unhooked stuff is stuff seems to be a little easier with a snowboard. You can see to get a little more edge and pop.