I bought cheap foil kite. whenever to hit a gust, it will collapse one side or flip over or even twist. Is that common problem with foil kite or just me got a bad one?
Jerry
foil kite collapse problem
Moderator: MK
Re: foil kite collapse problem
Jerry, what kind of kite did you buy? Just want to know what to avoid.
Re: foil kite collapse problem
Foil or inflatable, if the wind is rolling instead of blowing, kiting is not going to be a good experience. Kites will fall, invert, and gently go to the power zone and then violently power up. The wind is the most important factor. After that, it is all about the kiters feel for a particular kite. That feel is skill with that particular size and model of kite, not the kiters overall skill. It is comical for me to watch a skilled inflatable kiter try to understand a foil. And that street kind of goes both ways.
But SQ225917 put it very eloquently to me when he stated:
"Matt, I think a lot of kiters just get lessons and go straight onto inflatables. I think 6 months flying foils so that they truly learn how to 'feel' a kite should be mandatory."
If this were how it was, there would be no more complaints about backstall, as everyone would know how to handle this - the same with overfly. I think kites would be better here in 2014 if everyone did have depower foil experience as backstall/overfly complaints would not hurt performance kite design.
It is common for a new kiter or someone with only inflatable kite experience to have issues with keeping a foil kite in the air. Though, some foil kites will do better than others. This is because each foil model is shaped, and handles, differently than others. This is the same situation with inflatables. But almost any depower foil can be made to stay up in the sky in lighter winds than a depower inflatable will.
Hopefully I will keep foil heads and tubies happy with my following analogy.
Foils are like a Harley. They have a easy going feel to them if you use them right. On the snow, they can do every thing that an inflatable can do, but they do some things much better. But you have to sit back and feel the ride. Don't force it, nor should you completely trust the kite, while flying it. Feeling a foil is much more intimate (for me) than feeling an inflatable. Foils just have a deep torquey feel with very light signals sent to you through all 4 lines. You have to adjust to this type of pull and keep off the edge of the window. If the kite is collapsing constantly, they you need to "wiggle" the kite back and forth in one spot. This will make the kite hang back just a bit in the window. If you learn this, you be a much better foil AND inflatable kiter.
Inflatables are like a racing bike. They like to go fast, or rather like to have some wind flowing over them. Sitting still, they just look wrong and kind of behave that way too. But at speed, they just hum along and feel great. Some of the beginner tuned inflatables can almost be forgotten about on the edge of the window in clean wind. Some are actually worse than foils for falling out of the sky - think "Hindenburg".
If you are confused about the double talk in the above comparisons, then you should just take the foil out and fly it. My best advice is that you need to take it out in 4-8mph of wind on a surface where you can walk/run to get the kite up. If you can keep your kite up in the air in this wind, you will have half of the foil puzzle solved.
If this is your first foil and you were hoping to jump right into a "new type of bike", you will be disappointed for a while.
Bring the foil kite to the Kite Crossing this weekend and let me fly it a bit. Not loving the forecast so far, but I will be there if my truck makes it. If it happens to be a Pansh kite, it may be beyond my realm of experience. But we do have a kiter here in Omaha that has worked to tune his Pansh depower foils and they do work decent.
But SQ225917 put it very eloquently to me when he stated:
"Matt, I think a lot of kiters just get lessons and go straight onto inflatables. I think 6 months flying foils so that they truly learn how to 'feel' a kite should be mandatory."
If this were how it was, there would be no more complaints about backstall, as everyone would know how to handle this - the same with overfly. I think kites would be better here in 2014 if everyone did have depower foil experience as backstall/overfly complaints would not hurt performance kite design.
It is common for a new kiter or someone with only inflatable kite experience to have issues with keeping a foil kite in the air. Though, some foil kites will do better than others. This is because each foil model is shaped, and handles, differently than others. This is the same situation with inflatables. But almost any depower foil can be made to stay up in the sky in lighter winds than a depower inflatable will.
Hopefully I will keep foil heads and tubies happy with my following analogy.
Foils are like a Harley. They have a easy going feel to them if you use them right. On the snow, they can do every thing that an inflatable can do, but they do some things much better. But you have to sit back and feel the ride. Don't force it, nor should you completely trust the kite, while flying it. Feeling a foil is much more intimate (for me) than feeling an inflatable. Foils just have a deep torquey feel with very light signals sent to you through all 4 lines. You have to adjust to this type of pull and keep off the edge of the window. If the kite is collapsing constantly, they you need to "wiggle" the kite back and forth in one spot. This will make the kite hang back just a bit in the window. If you learn this, you be a much better foil AND inflatable kiter.
Inflatables are like a racing bike. They like to go fast, or rather like to have some wind flowing over them. Sitting still, they just look wrong and kind of behave that way too. But at speed, they just hum along and feel great. Some of the beginner tuned inflatables can almost be forgotten about on the edge of the window in clean wind. Some are actually worse than foils for falling out of the sky - think "Hindenburg".
If you are confused about the double talk in the above comparisons, then you should just take the foil out and fly it. My best advice is that you need to take it out in 4-8mph of wind on a surface where you can walk/run to get the kite up. If you can keep your kite up in the air in this wind, you will have half of the foil puzzle solved.
If this is your first foil and you were hoping to jump right into a "new type of bike", you will be disappointed for a while.
Bring the foil kite to the Kite Crossing this weekend and let me fly it a bit. Not loving the forecast so far, but I will be there if my truck makes it. If it happens to be a Pansh kite, it may be beyond my realm of experience. But we do have a kiter here in Omaha that has worked to tune his Pansh depower foils and they do work decent.
Re: foil kite collapse problem
Well said Matt!
Crappy wind will mess with any kites, but foils are a little more sensitive to bad wind since they rely on wind entering the leading edge of the cells to stay inflated and help maintain their shape. If you also have a bad kite (uneven flying/brake lines, irregular bridle lines, roughly sewn cell seams, etc.) then that will just add to the problem. Good foils can be flown in crap wind, they will jump around a bit and require constant attention, but at least they will respond to your input.
How many times have you flown your kite? Where have you flown your kite? Try to make sure you have the cleanest wind you can by not flying downwind of trees and buildings. We are also curious what kite you bought, if you can share that info with us.
Crappy wind will mess with any kites, but foils are a little more sensitive to bad wind since they rely on wind entering the leading edge of the cells to stay inflated and help maintain their shape. If you also have a bad kite (uneven flying/brake lines, irregular bridle lines, roughly sewn cell seams, etc.) then that will just add to the problem. Good foils can be flown in crap wind, they will jump around a bit and require constant attention, but at least they will respond to your input.
How many times have you flown your kite? Where have you flown your kite? Try to make sure you have the cleanest wind you can by not flying downwind of trees and buildings. We are also curious what kite you bought, if you can share that info with us.
Re: foil kite collapse problem
it's 15m a copy of speed 3.
so far I can tell:
the foil kite save time by not pumping is not true. I spend much more time to setup the kite.
the foil kite easy to stay in the air is not true. It need more carefully to keep attention of lines otherwise it will collapse.
inflatable kite is easy to parking for a break. the foil kite won't move with brake line but more likely the lines will be tangled.
inflatable kite is much faster than foil kite.
I guess the only good thing with foil kite is smooth landing. but if you fly Cabrinha crossbow or switchblade you will know they are very smooth for delivery on power.
Personally I like Naish Sigma sharp kites. they are the most stable kites to handle gusty wind.(but sadly they don't make them anymore.)
Jerry
so far I can tell:
the foil kite save time by not pumping is not true. I spend much more time to setup the kite.
the foil kite easy to stay in the air is not true. It need more carefully to keep attention of lines otherwise it will collapse.
inflatable kite is easy to parking for a break. the foil kite won't move with brake line but more likely the lines will be tangled.
inflatable kite is much faster than foil kite.
I guess the only good thing with foil kite is smooth landing. but if you fly Cabrinha crossbow or switchblade you will know they are very smooth for delivery on power.
Personally I like Naish Sigma sharp kites. they are the most stable kites to handle gusty wind.(but sadly they don't make them anymore.)
Jerry
Re: foil kite collapse problem
I feel for you on the Naish Sigma shapes. I have only a bit of experience with them but the Omaha local kiter with the most years of kiting experience used to use them and was great on them. Now he flies Cabrinha's exclusively. Those are great too. I am always happy to switch whatever I am flying with his.
Don't feel bad about your foil experience. Nor should you jump to conclusions about how a foil ultimately flies. As I said before, your experience is very common and I always get to see 1 or 2 guys go through the same thing every year. The issues you are having are similar to an adult learning a new language. If you have spoken English all of your life, you are going to have some trouble saying something in another language. Your accent will get to be less pronounced as you practice more and more. One day you may even start to think in your second language rather than your first.
The signals that a foil kite is sending you are somewhat of a different language than what an inflatable is sending you. Often, the meaning is lost in translation or simply beyond skill level comprehension. Mostly, you are dealing with something that really does not make sense to your preconceptions of what should be.
This is because a foil is MORE rigid than an inflatable when moving. This sounds counter intuitive, but the foil shape is is held more rigidly because there are bridal attachment points along the entire bottom surface of the foil from leading edge to the trailing edge. Another aspect of a foil is that it has an internal structure. The cells that make up this structure turn your kite into a "cardboard box". Given these properties, a foil does not change shape as much as an inflatable when flying forward (filled with air). This rigid shape transmits a much more direct feel for the kite. This turns out to be the most counter intuitive thing about foil kites. Where you expect a softer, more dampened feel, you actually have a harder more intense feel. I strongly believe that the once you get this concept and gain an instinctual feel, you will have begun to "speak foil" and one day "think foil". I have seen it happen in others around here.
An SLE inflatable is LESS rigid than a foil when filled with air. Again, counter intuitive, but very true. Since only the leading edge has ridged support via the front bridal, the rest of the canopy is free to flex. Think of it like a piece of paper. Though a piece of paper will hold some folds in it, those folds flex easily anyplace they are not completely supported. Sure the struts are there for support and have some shape holding power, but how easy is it for you to bend one of those struts to affect the canopy shape? Just a slight pressure is all it takes to alter the airfoil shape (curve) induced by a strut of an inflatable. With no support of the underside of the kite or the struts via a bridle system, the airfoil loads (lift) are distributed through the canopy back to the leading edge and slightly to the trailing edge to the steering lines. This flexes and distorts your airfoil shape in an inflatable when changing angle of attack (sheeting) or when encountering a change in wind speed/shear. I would describe the feel of an inflatable as being muffled or partially dampened. This feel has been refined through many years (and mistakes) of kite development. This muffled feeling has been tuned to the point that it actually feels easier and flying an inflatable takes less understanding of how an airfoil works. In many ways, you can make more mistakes in basic kite flying with an inflatable, but not lose power in the kite or have the kite fall completely on most models. The Naish "Ride" is one of the most refined inflatables that I have ever seen. But I hate it because I cannot make it back stall when I want to over run the kite. It is a super easy kite to fly and works perfect except I love backstall. Best "Kahoona's" and most other good inflatables can be made to backstall when you want them to. But it takes skill to control and they have can't turn on a back stall. Foils, on the other hand, back stall AND can be made to utilize this to "pinwheel turn" and allow you to over run the kite. (Note: kite overrunning you = BAD + kite falls. You overrunning the kite = Good + power boost.)
Though the above sounds like I am for inflatables more than foils, I am actually not. Foils really come into their own when you learn them and begin to exploit their displacement properties. This allows a foil to stay up, and recover from a lull that would "Hindenburg" an inflatable. Again, I can keep a foil up in much lighter winds than an inflatable.
As far as,
Don't feel bad about your foil experience. Nor should you jump to conclusions about how a foil ultimately flies. As I said before, your experience is very common and I always get to see 1 or 2 guys go through the same thing every year. The issues you are having are similar to an adult learning a new language. If you have spoken English all of your life, you are going to have some trouble saying something in another language. Your accent will get to be less pronounced as you practice more and more. One day you may even start to think in your second language rather than your first.
The signals that a foil kite is sending you are somewhat of a different language than what an inflatable is sending you. Often, the meaning is lost in translation or simply beyond skill level comprehension. Mostly, you are dealing with something that really does not make sense to your preconceptions of what should be.
This is because a foil is MORE rigid than an inflatable when moving. This sounds counter intuitive, but the foil shape is is held more rigidly because there are bridal attachment points along the entire bottom surface of the foil from leading edge to the trailing edge. Another aspect of a foil is that it has an internal structure. The cells that make up this structure turn your kite into a "cardboard box". Given these properties, a foil does not change shape as much as an inflatable when flying forward (filled with air). This rigid shape transmits a much more direct feel for the kite. This turns out to be the most counter intuitive thing about foil kites. Where you expect a softer, more dampened feel, you actually have a harder more intense feel. I strongly believe that the once you get this concept and gain an instinctual feel, you will have begun to "speak foil" and one day "think foil". I have seen it happen in others around here.
An SLE inflatable is LESS rigid than a foil when filled with air. Again, counter intuitive, but very true. Since only the leading edge has ridged support via the front bridal, the rest of the canopy is free to flex. Think of it like a piece of paper. Though a piece of paper will hold some folds in it, those folds flex easily anyplace they are not completely supported. Sure the struts are there for support and have some shape holding power, but how easy is it for you to bend one of those struts to affect the canopy shape? Just a slight pressure is all it takes to alter the airfoil shape (curve) induced by a strut of an inflatable. With no support of the underside of the kite or the struts via a bridle system, the airfoil loads (lift) are distributed through the canopy back to the leading edge and slightly to the trailing edge to the steering lines. This flexes and distorts your airfoil shape in an inflatable when changing angle of attack (sheeting) or when encountering a change in wind speed/shear. I would describe the feel of an inflatable as being muffled or partially dampened. This feel has been refined through many years (and mistakes) of kite development. This muffled feeling has been tuned to the point that it actually feels easier and flying an inflatable takes less understanding of how an airfoil works. In many ways, you can make more mistakes in basic kite flying with an inflatable, but not lose power in the kite or have the kite fall completely on most models. The Naish "Ride" is one of the most refined inflatables that I have ever seen. But I hate it because I cannot make it back stall when I want to over run the kite. It is a super easy kite to fly and works perfect except I love backstall. Best "Kahoona's" and most other good inflatables can be made to backstall when you want them to. But it takes skill to control and they have can't turn on a back stall. Foils, on the other hand, back stall AND can be made to utilize this to "pinwheel turn" and allow you to over run the kite. (Note: kite overrunning you = BAD + kite falls. You overrunning the kite = Good + power boost.)
Though the above sounds like I am for inflatables more than foils, I am actually not. Foils really come into their own when you learn them and begin to exploit their displacement properties. This allows a foil to stay up, and recover from a lull that would "Hindenburg" an inflatable. Again, I can keep a foil up in much lighter winds than an inflatable.
As far as,
- This can be true sometimes. But over all, with a properly packed foil kite - 1. set up the kite in the back of the window and loosely stretch out the bridles 2. Unwind the bar, step into the board bindings, pull the front lines and go. - is way quicker than just the setup of an inflatable, let alone the pumping.the foil kite save time by not pumping is not true. I spend much more time to setup the kite.
- In time the opposite will be true. But for now, you will have a bit of a long learning curve while you learn the feel of a foil.the foil kite easy to stay in the air is not true. It need more carefully to keep attention of lines otherwise it will collapse.
- The brake line (link between the steering lines above the bar) can also steer the kite like it is a bar with one hand. Just grab in the middle, and angle your wrist to brake/steer one side more than the othere. This can allow you to avoid some tangles.inflatable kite is easy to parking for a break. the foil kite won't move with brake line but more likely the lines will be tangled.
- This is not as good of a thing as some kiters think. Speed of a kite is typically referring to how fast a kite moves through the window up to the leading edge. A tiny kite can move up extremely fast, but you do not move off of this kite speed. Or rather, your speed is not determined by kite speed (though it can be limited by kite speed when exceeding the wind speed). Your speed is determined by the force exerted on the lines over time. Regardless of how fast a kite moves through the window, it will only pull on you with maximum force in a small portion of the window. At the edge of the window, the kite does not have much power. So if you have a kite that moves forward quickly, it may give you more of an "impulse" of pull. But it will then lose power quickly. Foil kites, having a slower speed through the window, can have much more pull since they spend more time in the power zone. This fits my style of riding. More pull makes me happier than a zippier kite I am constantly trying to keep in the right spot for power.inflatable kite is much faster than foil kite.
Re: foil kite collapse problem
It's a 15M (copy) of a speed 3. I think I've discovered the real problem.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Re: foil kite collapse problem
Copy, schmoppy.... If it is a copy, it should be close to the same. If it is only "like" a Speed 3 then it could be completely different. One of the things that Pansh and other straight up knockoff's do is shorten the bridal length. I do not exactly understand the effect that the long bridals have on HQ's, but you do seem to feel the kite better without getting beat up. Short bridals on the Pansh seem to make the kite much more rough on you, but still seem to work. Maybe short bridals even give you more power in a foil? This conjecture is beyond my realm of knowledge.
Point is, if it is a copy with the same measurements all around, it should work. Sure you could have inferior materials that would not last as long, but quality foils last forever anyway. So poor quality materials should be fine when new. And almost all of our kites come out of China anyway so what is the difference? If you find a good foil for cheap, let us know.
For me, not to be a brand wh--e, HQ has had a better product and customer service than any other kite I have tried. Saving just a bit ($100-200) of money does not really make sense when I rely on my kites in some large open deep snow areas. That and there is also the fact that most China direct kite companies do not supply a bar with the kite. That is where you lose the savings.
Point is, if it is a copy with the same measurements all around, it should work. Sure you could have inferior materials that would not last as long, but quality foils last forever anyway. So poor quality materials should be fine when new. And almost all of our kites come out of China anyway so what is the difference? If you find a good foil for cheap, let us know.
For me, not to be a brand wh--e, HQ has had a better product and customer service than any other kite I have tried. Saving just a bit ($100-200) of money does not really make sense when I rely on my kites in some large open deep snow areas. That and there is also the fact that most China direct kite companies do not supply a bar with the kite. That is where you lose the savings.
Re: foil kite collapse problem
Hi.
Im not a huge expert on foil kites, but i had a few.. My first big foil was 22m pansh aurora - "copy of fly speed2/3" according to their website.
There are some forums and people were modding this kite a lot to get a better performance. My 22m was slow as a truck, and didnt have any low-end power. It would fly, but i had lots of collapsing problems and it was very hard to relaunch.
I sold it and got speed2 15m instead.. It was used and had exactly the same problems you described. equal bar lines length is very important for any kite, especially for the foil, where you need to have tension on all 4 lines. Anyways, that speed2 was out of tune, so i just googled how to tune a speed2 kite and decided to start with the bar. One of the middle lines was shorter about an inch, and one of the rear lines was about 2 inches longer. Once i had my bar square and all lines had the same length - it was totally different kite.
My point is that it is very likely you need to work with you bar&lines. Make sure they are equal length, then just tune your rear lines. From what i've heard Pansh are ok kites. I saw lots of good reviews on that 15m copy. 22 was pretty bad though
I'd highly recommend replacing heavy&huge pansh metal pulleys with some plastic ronstan pulleys.
2 Matt: I prefer longer bridal lines on the foil kites. If you cant roll pulleys on the bar then bridal lines easily tangling around it its harder to setup the kite
Good luck
Almost forgotten.. There is a flysurfer speed1 17m on ebay right now. The guy is selling it for only 300$ complete!
If i had 15m pansh i'd just buy this speed1 and god rid of pansh later.
Im not a huge expert on foil kites, but i had a few.. My first big foil was 22m pansh aurora - "copy of fly speed2/3" according to their website.
There are some forums and people were modding this kite a lot to get a better performance. My 22m was slow as a truck, and didnt have any low-end power. It would fly, but i had lots of collapsing problems and it was very hard to relaunch.
I sold it and got speed2 15m instead.. It was used and had exactly the same problems you described. equal bar lines length is very important for any kite, especially for the foil, where you need to have tension on all 4 lines. Anyways, that speed2 was out of tune, so i just googled how to tune a speed2 kite and decided to start with the bar. One of the middle lines was shorter about an inch, and one of the rear lines was about 2 inches longer. Once i had my bar square and all lines had the same length - it was totally different kite.
My point is that it is very likely you need to work with you bar&lines. Make sure they are equal length, then just tune your rear lines. From what i've heard Pansh are ok kites. I saw lots of good reviews on that 15m copy. 22 was pretty bad though
I'd highly recommend replacing heavy&huge pansh metal pulleys with some plastic ronstan pulleys.
2 Matt: I prefer longer bridal lines on the foil kites. If you cant roll pulleys on the bar then bridal lines easily tangling around it its harder to setup the kite
Good luck
Almost forgotten.. There is a flysurfer speed1 17m on ebay right now. The guy is selling it for only 300$ complete!
If i had 15m pansh i'd just buy this speed1 and god rid of pansh later.
Re: foil kite collapse problem
Awesome wisdom Matt V. I figured out the dirty air issue the frustrating way.Just last weekend as a matter of fact.
I been on a hydra 350 for 2 years on my small lake with great results so I got a ozone summit this year. I was ready to burn it lol
I did some more research and I figured out when the wind is at 300 deg. I can ride in west bay when its 360 deg North bay. The lake I'm on is too small bottom line. But it can be done. I just needed more fines.
Heading out to WBL this afternoon .
HM
I been on a hydra 350 for 2 years on my small lake with great results so I got a ozone summit this year. I was ready to burn it lol
I did some more research and I figured out when the wind is at 300 deg. I can ride in west bay when its 360 deg North bay. The lake I'm on is too small bottom line. But it can be done. I just needed more fines.
Heading out to WBL this afternoon .
HM