Upgrading vs Expanding a quiver

[enderbeanz]

I am in the market for a new kite and I can't decide if I should update my current kite with a modern replacement or expand my quiver and add a smaller modern kite. I have been snowkiting exclusively with a 13m inflatable since 2008 and kites have definitely come along way since 08' and at the end of the last season I found my self not wanting to be limited to lighter wind days due to having only one kite. This was fine in the beginning when I would only brave lighter days due to my inexperience but I have been experimenting more with unhooked and load and pop stuff which just isn't as doable in lighter wind

So the question is do I upgrade to another larger size bread and butter kite (likely a 12m) and stay a one kite guy. Or go for a smaller kite (likely a 9m) and spend the cash there? This would let me charge the heavier days while holding on to the 13m for light days when you tend to just be cruising any way.

I have always heard that if people can they prefer to fly their 9m because it is a lot snappier and more fun to fly, but does the likely hood we'll see 9m conditions often enough make this a wise purchase. There is probably no clear answer here but just looking for some banter on how often people actually ride their smaller kites?

[Matt V]

Are you kiting on the water too? And you really need to state your weight and what type of kite your '08 is. Back then, all types of kites were available. It could be a C, a first or second gen Bow, or even an early Delta. Need to know this key piece of info to give you specific advice. This is because all different types of kites have different power available for their published size.

Example (some debate may occur)

2012 kite sizes having the same available power

12m Cabrinha Switchblade
12m North Reble
11m Cabrinha Crossbow
12.5m Best Kahoona (made up the size for comparison)
14m Best TS
15m Slingshot Fuel (made up the size for comparison and never flow one)
15m North Vegas (made up the size for comparison)

All of the above kites would have the same available power, though different delivery and timing on that power. So if you had the 11m Cabrinha Crossbow, and then thought you needed to add a bigger kite and chose the 15m Fuel, you made a bad choice. This is because you would fly the 15m Fuel in the same winds as the 11m Crossbow. Depower is all over on this comparison and too complicated to add to the equation. Relaunch is pretty varied between all of them too. And then there is turn rate and where the kite sits in the window. Lots of stuff to worry about.

I try to simplify this equation by having the same style of kite across my quiver. Since I like to ride the board instead of riding the kite, I love the Best Kahoona's. They come forward for jumps, but sit back to match my riding style with a small wave quad surfboard on swell. At 220lbs, my first Kahoona's were a 13.5m and a 11.5m. I would sit on the beach anytime it was cranking more that the 11.5m would allow and just watch guys out on their 9m's and 8m's. I then had a few sessions on a borrowed 8m Switchblade and realized that I was now skilled enough for a 9.5m Kahoona. So that is my current quiver - 13.5m, 11.5m, 9.5m all in the same style/model of kite. This means that they behave very similar and there is no issue with the 9.5m having the same power as the 11.5m or even there being too much of a gap in between. I will not go into how the foils I fly on the snow are different but I will say that there is a learning curve coming from water season to snow season.

Though I would recommend a Delta like my Kahoona's, I would say that you need to find a kite with similar performance characteristics to your existing 13m if you intend to keep and use your 13m. This will help you keep timing and power on a level playing field. That said, especially if you are heavier, 9m winds compared to 13m winds can make a kite of the same year/brand/model feel completely different anyway.

[MK]

Matt brought up some good points, I wish the decisions on gear were more black and white. Discovering your wieght and kite shape preference makes it quicker to give suggestions.

When I entered the sport I discovered there were a few before me who had turned over the same stones. My initial investment was one kite to verify if this was going to stick with me as a hobby. Also it was how I could afford to enter, one kite at a time.

I'm glad to have had the opportunity to have owned and flown several kites/brands. I have witnessed and 'felt' the evolution of kites from several brands. The pursuit of the perfect kite depends on some key variables Matt stated:
1. your weight
2. type of current kite
3. use - snow/land, open water, or both
Given more time to type Matt and others would agree there are some additional variables like your skill level to consider and type of rider (i.e. hooked-in vs. un-hooked; aggressive vs. sailor). With these variables it makes it important to differentiate individual opinion. It would likely be best to gain a response from someone who is similar in use and weight. Kite shape is a key consideration and so is the control bar, safety system, trim ability, 4 or 5th line. All these are options based on preference. 5th line kites test the outter limit of patience for some but the re-launch in light wind, trim ease, and safety it offers makes it a valuable consideration.

Here are brands I sell: Slingshot, Ozone, Cabrihna, North, Best, Ocean Rodeo, RRD, F-One. I'm probably missing 1-2 I can't think of at the moment. The DNA of kite shape is out there. Your 08' kite for all practical purposes is out-dated, regardless if it is in good condition. Doesn't mean you can't get fulfilled enjoyment from it though. I won't bash peoples gear, hope you don't think I am. I like how you referenced at the beginning of your post with words like "modern kite" and how kites have "come a long way." There is always a sale on kites with me:) My manufacturers require I have minimum advertising price points. This means anything listed is subject to this requirement, conversation however is the loop-hole. It saves you to ask me.

I like and dislike things about most brands of kites. Again Matt was keen to point out the opinion may flare up and "some debate may occur." I'd enjoy the opportunity to help sift through the options and help get you outfitted. A phone call usually covers more ground faster but I would like to know the aforementioned variables to best cater your answers.

Inventory is gone for a lot of 2012 kite brands but not all. Some brands still have 2011 inventory and even 2009. This implies there is some deals:) If price is the most motivating factor then let me know if there is a brand you prefer and I'll inform you accordingly. 2013 North for example has a really cool one-control bar feature that saves the need for additional control bars with kites. Cabrihna has some of the best let-off there is in kites; when you push out, the amount of pull on you while standing is very little - nice safety feature. Naish bar is very similar to Slingshot. Ozone is one of the most established kite companies world wide.

I hope this helps and that I get an opportunity to outfit you.

Winds come up slightly Wednesday!

Regards,

[enderbeanz]

Here are some critical missing details

1. 165 lb
2. 08' Ozone Insticnt Sport II
3. Ride exclusively on snow with strong intent to ride water eventually.
4. Kiting regularly during the snow season since 2007 (with a childhood of snow, skate, and wakeboarding prior to kiting)

I don't want to spark a large kite Manufacturer debate because that has a lot has to do with personal perferences. I am looking towards beginning to progress beyond simply just riding and I get the feeling that it is easier to throw boosts, loops, handle passes etc if the wind is a bit higher, which is why I was leaning toward an updated smaller kite. But again if the wind isn't up that much maybe that is not worth the investment at this time and a smaller kite can come later (hopefully not 5 years later this time) after I update my workhorse kite.

I am not looking for a C-kite. I would like something that is bridled and has a good range and depower. I have had my eye on 12' LF Envy largely because I think their control system is impressive. Slingshot Rally and RPM and Ozone C4 are also in the back of my head.

[MK]

"I don't want to spark a large kite Manufacturer debate because that has a lot has to do with personal perferences."
Very well stated.

I'll do a search now for inventory. Given your comment about handle passes, this implies a quicker turning kite. I'll use this as search criteria too.

[Matt V]

I have some time in on a 12m 2012 Liquid Force "NRG". It is very similar in (perceived) power to my 13.5 Best Kahoona. For being so much toward the bow side, it seems like it relaunches easy too. So I kind of like the kite. But LF is one of the most bashed brands out there. I have seen some '11s not stand up to abuse. The bar is like Cabrinha's bars of the past where if you throw the release, you can easily lose the chicken loop as it does not float. This can be prevented, but it can still happen where it cannot happen on other bar systems.

Not being a sponsored rider or selling kites, I can bash any kite I want. The problem is that every single kite MFG has serious release/bar/line/bridle/kite issues just like Liquid Force. I have cobbled together myself a kite system of 80% Best/10% North/10% Q-Powerline components in my current quiver of water kites circa 2011 to 2012 models. My kites are Best, my bars are Best, my lines are half Q-Powerline (fronts), and my releases are the North Iron Heart IV's.

What I am trying to say is that you need to really research the kite brand/system that your getting into. I thought I did and wound up with the same frustration on my newer "modern" equipment as I had on my older gear. And I paid tons more for it. Really disheartening to have brand new gear that does not work for you just because you are over a certain weight. Since you do not have the same gravitational challenges that I do, you could have a much better experience than me. But just make sure you are looking really deep into what you are getting. Then when the issue occurs you will see it coming, or at least have a spare part.


2012 kite sizes having the same available power

12m Cabrinha Switchblade
12m North Rebel
11m Cabrinha Crossbow
11m Liquid Force NRG (made up the size for comparison)
12.5m Best Kahoona (made up the size for comparison)
14m Best TS
15m Slingshot Fuel (made up the size for comparison and never flow one)
15m North Vegas (made up the size for comparison)

[MK]

"Gravitational challenges" Good one!

I think you were getting warranty support from Best last recollection. It's frustrating when issues come up, warranty never accounts for time lost. Your posts since sound upbeat so hope that means issues were settled and you got to rock out with your kite out:)

[enderbeanz]

Thanks for the advice so far, but I feel like the heart of my question has not been answered. I know there are a lot of circumstantial details that are required for really answering this question but I always like to work a little broader and make some sweeping generalizations then pick at the details. The goal of this post was to get some advice on whether I should upgrade and relplace my existing single kite or upgrade and expand my quiver to include a smaller kite, and not necessarilly to determine which specific kite to buy.

Place youself in a situation where you are looking for new gear and only have the financials to do it one kite at a time with one to two years between your next kite. Would you rather keep replacing and upgrading the kite you use most (likely a larger size around here) leading to one to two years between each newer kite or alternate large kite then small kite leading to two to four years between upgrading both kites in your quiver.

Right now my 08' Ozone is in great shape and I still get enjoyment from it even though as mike said it is a bit dated. But if it is more or less just an engine for light wind days maybe a smaller modern kite would be more fun to fly and let me get out on the heavier days and its bottom end could leak into my 13m top end replacing some of the time behind the 13m.

Maybe people who have a large and small kite in their quiver of the same make and model could chime in on how often they ride each size and what their kite purchasing/replacement strategy is.

Thanks.

[Matt V]

Touché!

Hate to say it, but you need a minimum of 2 kites for the water to get the most out of 90% of the good days here in the Midwest. Just no way around it. I even held this belief since my entry to the sport with foils on the snow. Back then I started off with a 6m and a 10m foil. On water I did 14m and 11m. I bought the snow kites and the water kites in pairs. I had the advantage of coming from a windsurfing background so I intimately understood the importance of having range in your quiver. I would not have even moved up from the trainer kite to a set of full sized depower kites if I could not have purchased 2 at nearly the same time. I knew, even though no one gave me this advice, that I could learn 2 times as fast having 2 different sized kites. To sum it up, from my point of view, you should have started out with 2 kites.

For me it works like this:

13.5m gets used 45% of the fun days
11.5m gets used 30% of the fun days
9.5m gets used 20% of the fun days
If I had a 7.5 I could use it 2.5% of the fun days here
If I had a 15m-17m I would use it the other 2.5% of the fun days.

(Please note that not all days are fun. Crappy shear or directional shift will kick you off the water on any kite size. On those days, it is best to just bail as you will learn little and risk much. In eastern Nebraska it is 100 times more likely to have one of those bad days on the giant 15m-17m size or on the tiny 7.5m size. Move just 1-4 hours west and those sizes get a much bigger piece of the pie and are somewhat valuable. Other locations are different. In the gorge the 7.5 would possibly be used the most and the 13.5 could be useless. In SPI you could go 15m-17m, 11.5m, and 7.5m and use all of them more or less equally if you had all 3.)


Since you are now experienced with using 1 kite and you have advanced your skills to the point that you are having fun, my advice is not as easily related to you. Case in point is that there are a few windsurfers out there who do not use a harness. Every other windsurfer looks at them and knows what they are missing out on, but there is just no way you can convince them how much better it is with a harness. And you do not really need to worry about correcting them as they are still having fun. If you want to have fun like me, you need to try to do like I do. But if you are fine having fun as you are, then go for that too.

To me it sounds like you have a conundrum. You appear to need to replace your existing kite, and buy another though you can only chose 1 of those options. And I must apologize at this point. I maybe should not have answered the post in the beginning as I do not have relatable experience to your situation. I started off with 2 kites. Every one I have talked to that is getting into kiting knows that I am a fierce advocate of "2 kites or none". I have also seen some people just get one kite, and a very high percentage of them just do not continue with the sport. It is worse with those that purchase only 1 used or ancient kite. My best windsurfing friend is my primary example of this. And now he has purchased more old kite gear that he still does not use. If you make the commitment to the gear in kiteboarding, and pay through the a-s for that gear, you will learn how to use it and you will have fun on it or die trying. I wish it were cheaper to get into all the time, especially when I need to add to my quiver or replace gear.

My replacement philosophy is:

1. Do not trash your gear. Launch and land safely.
2. Sell what you can bring yourself to sell to replace what absolutely needs replacing.
3. Have a back up for gear if you travel as gas is expensive. Spending $100 on gas to drive 4 hours adds up quickly if your gear fails you and the trip was a waste.
4. Eat ramen noodle soup, give up dating, buy a Chilton manual to fix your own vehicle, cut your own hair with a 3-way mirror, see what you can buy from the thrift store like clothes, take a second job, or take a 3rd job. - and all the women I know say I have a problem with commitment.

[Barry P]

I'm 165-175#. I kited winter-only for 3 years before switching from windsurfing to water kiting. The $$/fun ratio for my wind addition has constantly been a very big player in my decision making, where $$ = cost-resale.

If I only count the inflatables that I've owned and enjoyed since 2004, that would be something like 15 kites. Of that mix, this year, my wife (that's right - my sweetie pie!) ignored $$/fun and bought me my 1st ever new new kite: a beautiful 2012 14M Spitfire by Caution Kites before closeout discounts even kicked in! On my own, buying from my personal horded stash of 'kite cash'... the $$/fun on a dreamy new new kite has been the stumbling block that has prevented me from striking. I have usually found that if know what I'm after, and if I haunt iKiteSurf.com, here, or other sites this has paid off the best. There certainly is increased risk of getting ripped off that way, but I've only been less than pleased two times out of 15.

With buying used, you throw away $20 or $30 on shipping - but that's not much compared to throwing away money on sales tax. Usually a 2010, 2011, or 2012 will fly at least 95% the same within any given brand and cut (assuming the airfoil cut actually changed at all).

I believe all of us think it would be wonderful to have one magical kite that can do it all, but I don't know of anyone who doesn't end up with at least 3 kites (especially when you throw water into the mix). Newer kites certainly tend to have a wider wind range, but as you get to the top and bottom of that range... just how much fun is it, compared to a size or two up or down if you've got it? Count on it, you will eventually own at least three kites.

At present my quiver now stands at 5 kites: 17M Ozone Zephyr, 14M, 11M, 9M, 7M Caution Spitfires or Mayhem-Xs. I kite on two kite-surfboards for water, a 164 Door, and I use skies or snowboard in winter. I sometimes wonder if I wouldn't be almost as happy scaling down to a 17M, 11M, 7M quiver. This would improve my $$/fun ratio. But dang, there are those days where the 14 and 9 have delivered so extremely well I just can't let them go.

In 2011 I kept a record of sessions per kite. Here's my riding record (for what it's worth):
Snow (36 sessions, 4 months): 7M: 3%, 9M: 22%, 11/12M: 17%, 14M: 36%, 16/18M:22%
Water (58 sessions, 8 months): 7M: 3%, 9M: 7%, 11/12M: 21%, 14M: 28%, 16/18M:41%

Switching around on different brands and cuts taught me valuable things about what fits me best in various kite and bar designs. This learning cost me less following a Bottom-Feeder plan. Of course demos are great when I can be at the right lake at the right time, but I find that forming a clear opinion requires more than a 10 or 30 minute session. Getting to know the kite over a variety of wind conditions and understanding what the designers were trying to maximize has been very instructive. I don't think any kite (since 2006) is really a 'bad' kite. Eventually you will find that clear winner combo of characteristics that you just love and your quiver will get tuned around it.

Have fun exploring!

[MK]

I always enjoy your posts Barry. You embody the phrase of "find your ride" for this sport. You and just a few others I recall log their rides. Weendy App and some other kiter apps have made it to my phone but I forget to key in the details. I'm usually too excited to get out and don't make it a priority to log-in.

Give me some leeway to steer from the original question, it kinda weaves itself back to it: It's really interesting to see the data. 94 days of riding sounds pretty good. That's almost 1x/wk. Seeing the kite size stats supports the benefits of having several kite sizes but the raw value of your larger kites can't be denied. I like how Matt commented the education is extended with additional kite sizes. It would be great if there was a one-kite option.

By the way, I'll shoulder the taxes and shipping for my orders.