Kitesurfing Calhoun and City lakes(wack & wbl)

[Professor Robae']

Hey Tighe,

Yes, you bring up some good points. There is a gray area here. Lessons definitely need to be highly encouraged to all beginners and intermediates. Usually the 202 lessons I have seen have been conducted safely and thoughtfully. Using a jet ski and the safest equipment plus being a HIGHLY qualified instructor are paramount factors.

But you know there have been times when things have gotten sketchy. Usually when there are a lot of lake users in the area and the wind is onshore and or puffy/ shifty - common conditions at the WAC.

In my opinion there are many days where any lesson on Waconia is just too risky. Who should have the power to make this call? Not someone who is motivated by money, again in my opinion.

Realistically the biggest threat to our access at WAC does come from the beginners/ intermediates who do not take the proper lessons. Not sure what the answer is here but it is good to talk about it.

Rob

[MK]

Oye... I'll give this a shot:

Some people are confused since the subject line doesn't match the opening Post. I had a person send me an email asking to help clarify. The initial interpretation presented was: we are all voting on when a good, safe day for a demo of Airush kites on Calhoun will be. Also, for those who are still reading this thread: Wac/WAC/wack = Lake Waconia; WBL = White Bear Lake. (remember when we all were learning this for the first time?)

Emails, posts, reply's, texts, and written language in general carry multiple opportunities for misinterpretation. We all know this but clarity is needed. I don't claim to have the skill set to best summarize so please give me some leeway, assume positive intent, know I have a business at stake, and help those who read but don't post and those just coming across this forum see we are all good peeps. One part about Nathan's opening post that was keen and accurate (now edited out) was to try our best to lock in on a date to best discuss in person. We have been privy to making decisions by committee and know there are pitfalls but it has to be better than decisions herein.

Now that I've stated the obvious: This thread has a good place in our community. The intent, I believe, is to establish greater safety for the sport. With businesses like mine, local retailers and riders/kiters freedoms at stake we naturally are coming in from a lot of different opinions. This is good, IMO (I'm so hip to use text short-hand).

It looks like there are some differences on whether we "ban" lakes all together, designate types of kite activity that can take place per lake (1:1 lessons only (after body surf lessons), skilled riders w/upwind skills), and elect/charter an association to govern our collective interests. Clearly we have divided ideas on this. Each of these topics are several meetings unto themselves. Maybe an election is best suited to designate ways for addressing these topics? Maybe we have a Twin Cities Chapter, Duluth Chapter, and Brainerd Chapter to better regulate their own safety? Additional chapters per area; not intending to leave other territories out. This gives those seeking chair positions greater opportunity to have a seat and minimizes an Oligarchy or the like.

There has been a lot of contribution in here. I like several particulars presented. Dean and Jim's summary on the difficulty of follow-through looks to be a formidable hurdle. I'm not opposed to generating a poll but don't wish to be viewed as taking the platform. We have remarkable experience and knowledge collectively. It's concerning if we aren't all given the opportunity to not only contribute but be respected and have those wishes included in precipitating rules. If an association is created without collective input it will immediately be subject to disrespect. That will cause considerable more harm to our community of kiters than good.

Competition for this market should be a good thing. Several businesses involved in educating excited people into the sport will naturally be better than only one. It increases awareness, creates more resources to learn from, and forces competition to better themselves.

Now that I have given all sorts of reasons to have some go to crazytown on me, I'll digress. The timing is good to address this since we are all eager to get a wind fix. We have all noticed how vocal the forum gets when we get pent up. Let's do our best to either agree to disagree or follow-through. Recall why we were drawn into the forum in first place. Set aside personal agendas and any bad blood. And, try to do some good. It has also been suggested taking this topic offline to help better move it forward. Much like judicial hearings at the capital or court room proceedings, some would rather not be brought into the granular intimacies but get the synopsis. Others however, would like the details. Can we agree on a way to get those people together?

The physical cleaning up of a beach and metaphorical meaning is quite brilliant. Dovetailing Mark's tragedy into it is equally a positive sentiment. I would suggest we may be more effective if we look at each objective individually and tackle them one-at-a-time. I'll work to make myself available for whatever the collective decides.

[Nathan B]

I have never once said I wanted to have a demo of airush kites on calhoun for kitesurfing. nor have I ever said I wanted to teach or promote any kitesurfing on calhoun. But if people are going to ride inner city lakes and you and others are going to teach at these lakes all I can do is suggest the safest gear. thats all.
I only teach ground schools in the cities But I am facing other issues because others are teaching and promoting these lakes for beginners, which we will bring up at the meetings.
first meeting is at Mille at Malmo after a beach clean up at reddy creek. U dont have to join in on the clean up but if you can make the meeting at malmo that would be great, If not we will be having another meeting at Waconia soon and one by white bear lake also soon.

[Nathan B]

I have to apologize if this thread was taking the wrong way as in no way shape or form would I ever teach or promote kiteboarding on calhoun and I am not saying I want to ride on calhoun.
we have some politics with teaching and promoting these lakes(wac & wbl) as spots that are safe for beginners. which some of us feel they are not. we are not trying to kill the stoke of the sport we only want to preserve our sport.

[macattack]

Why dont you all create a committee at one of the meetings to represent the wind fanatics of Minnesota. Could do it by either vote of whoever wants to donate their time and energy to the cause. Also might be wise to actually create a non-profit entity that is fully legit. The entity could then be the face and voice rather than get into the conflict of interest associated with those making a buck.

Donald

[bmr]

Nathan, Dude mon, I get it and hope others do too.

No worries...I think all factions want to preserve our sport and the sites we ride. Sorry to term it like that, but to be honest there is some kind of weird divide...oh well, in the end the ride is all that matters, something that trumps all trivial drama.

Anyways...

I'll see y'all at the Waconia mind-meld.
peas out

(Hey, Mike, you gotta be pumped over the number of hits on this thread! Awesome!)

[davepark]

Being new to the sport I had no idea so much was going on behind the scenes. From reading these posts is does seem that some type of organization could be beneficial and I would be glad to volunteer some of my free time to help out. Nathan, I would suggest that you contact the local newspapers to let them know when the cleanup is to see if you can get some press out of the deal. I don’t think it would hurt to show the locals that the kiteboarders care about the places we use. At the very least, we could take pictures and send them to the papers along with a short write up. I did a quick search and found the Mille Lacs Messenger, Aitkin Independent Age and it probably would not hurt to contact the Outdoor News as well.

Thanks,
Dave Parks

[MK]

lol, sweet moves for the bigman.

Not sure what will become of this high hit thread. Hopefully some structure that helps secure accesses and clears the divide. There is a pink elephant in here.

I'll structure my lessons to avoid safety threats and tensions, hopefully that will help.

[Nathan B]

macattack is in da house! words from a wise man.

thanks Mike.. Im working on shedding a few pounds tho

wow say the word Calhoun and well, wow.. did not mean for this thread to get taking in any wrong way. got a call from Gary saying peeps were not liking me .. well like it or not I am only trying to preserve our sport here people. I am sure alot will thnk I am the bad guy here. but truth be told I am the one trying to preserve the sport and I have alot experience and have seen the outcome. If we keep promoting newbs and teaching on these spots, its only a matter of time.. again not trying to kill the stoke at all! just want to keep our sport around for the long haul.

Mike how about not Teaching at Waconia, Medicine and Bear guess Ill have to approach the whole not teaching on these lakes a different way. maybe take down off this sites lake section that these lakes are places a beginner should be going

its this simple.... If we can do such a good job self banning lake Calhoun by word of mouth.... Then its not hard to speak up and say that beginners should not be going to these inner city lakes including lake Waconia, White Bear lake, and Medicine lake as these are the most popular for kitesurfing. nor should schools and people be bringing newbies to these spots for learning.

[jrjohnson1]

Keeping it simple I like. What you say sounds reasonable Nathan, I think we need to do whatever we can to preserve our sport - that needs to be our main focus. Forget about what may or may not be good for business and think about it from the perspective of what's good for our kiting community as a whole. I'm a purist at heart and hate the idea of a lot of bureaucracy involved whether it's through a committee or having a kiting accident happen and the government stepping in.
Over in Norway their attitude is don't do anything that will jeopardize the freedom of the sport - it's that simple.

[Mike G.]

Tighe said it all in an earlier post:
"we've done a good job in policing ourselves"

End this thread before it does more harm than good.

[smrsco]

Mike G-

I don't think I understand your above sentiment. What harm could come from the local kiting community coming together to protect lake access at a time when it could be at risk (ie: the DNR complaints at Waconia)?

The way I see it is we can either come together and address some of these issues ourselves or wait until the DNR or some other non-kiting agency does it for us.

[Woody]

tic toc tic toc..

looking at this from a very outside view, this topic is coming up with more frequency. It seems to me it's only a matter of time before the DNR will set some type of regulaton for the community. To think that everyone will adhere to the 'no kiting' self imposed rule of these questionable lakes is not being realistic. And after (again it really is only a matter of time) the DNR sets the rules, you will have to band together in some form of an association in order to be heard effectively through the eyes of government.

Best take the proverbial 'bull by the horns' here boys & girls.

Good winds..

[Mike G.]

I suppose I should explain what had me so upset about this thread.

First, Calhoun is a very unique situation and *should not in any way be lumped in with any other lake* just because it happens to lie within a 100 mile radius of the twin cities. It's unique and should be treated on its own in isolation.

Calhoun is the *only* lake which has a walking path/bike trail surrounding it, many pedestrians, etc.. and all you have to do is research this site to see why suggesting kiting Calhoun is folly.

Trying to include any other metro lake in this debate is trying compare apples to mock duck.

I can only conclude by this thread that you live close to Calhoun and don't want to make the 30 - 60 min. extra drive to other better suited sites.

I just returned from the Gorge and I think this community has something to learn from their experience. In particular, they are proactive in defining where and where not its appropriate to kite, and they sponsor the production of several newsletters and brochures with maps to kiting sites and restrictions. These are available free at any shop selling kite equipment, and the locals supply them if they sell equipment, in particular to people outside the region or new to the sport..

I subscribe to some old school ideals which have served me well over the year. "Don't go looking for trouble, or it will surely find you", "it it ain't broke don't fix it", etc. One thing you need to realize, is there are many pinhead gov. bureaucrats and all it takes sometimes is for someone to plant the wrong sound bite in an otherwise empty head to create stupid legislation.

Another old school notion.. "common sense", which includes being considerate of others who use the lake. You need to put yourself in the shoes of those other lake users and consider how your activity affects them. Fisherman in particular are a very vocal group with well standing with the DNR.

I think if you ask yourself "if I was in a small fishing boat trying to get out from the launch, and there was this mass of large kites flying about, how would I negotiate that gauntlet?" .. it puts a different perspective on your kiting.. instead of charging ahead since "I'm the wind powered guy and *I have the right of way*", to "maybe I should change direction so this guy in the fishing boat can get out".

Today at (lake unspecified) I saw a kiter riding about 30 ft. upwind from a fishing boat with his kite directly overhead, and this someone who should have known better... but if you apply the common sense rules, this never would have happened.

Bottom line, you can legislate the fun out of this sport and still have some nimrod rod spoil it for you.

So if you want to take matters into your own hands, talk to your fellow kiters, not to someone with no context in a gov. office who does NOT share the same passion as you.


Mike

[scottman]

Very well put MK! Everyone can learn from this thread, very positive!

[Nathan B]

Lake Mille Lacs, Reddy Creek Beach Clean up May 28th. The Mlle Lacs Clean-up is a great way to give back to the beach we use and help preserve our access. we will have a small bbq and chill meeting at Malmo in later afternoon. if you cant make it no worries, we will also meet the following week.

First week of June looking at have a meeting at the DNR launch at Lake Waconia and we will go over the issues at hand there. Rookie suggested a meeting at White Bear also and we could meet there the second week in june?

We need to pick a date for Waconia meeting may 31st - june 4th that would work with everyone especially those that could not make lake Mille Lacs. maybe thursday, friday or saturday June2,3,4th?

[rookie]

Nate, I suggested A meeting at White Bear instead of Milly (where most of the kiting community lives). One meeting. These are not isolated issues. I think most people would like to see an agenda, posted before the meeting. Otherwise its just going to be a heated debate with no conclusions or direction “The Nate debate“. G ~

[Nathan B]

no worries rookie if you do not want to help clean up our access and beach no worries. yes, that is why we are having the meeting at waconia the following week. I understand its a busy weekend for all, no worries we are just picking up our beach to hep preserve our waters and access.
we are going to make a agenda and hit on key points at Mille and the reason the first meeting is at Mille is to point out the Issues at hand there(as in the swimmmers area where we should be launching and landing etc.) and it is centrally located in our state and it is our main riding spot in our state so other have expressed interest in hearing some of the issues at hand again if you cant make Mille we will have a meting the following week at waconia. and yes I hear ya, there will be no heated debate or a "rookie rant". these meetings are platforms to make an agenda if one is even needed, as are having problems with these access sites so we go over each access site when we are there.


Waconia date I pick June 2nd , but I am open do any day that week.

[Barry P]

Do you think we'll make it to 5 pages?

It's a wiggly world.

In the UK you got this going on [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEZiZ9G-gNs[/youtube]. I wonder if kiting will be banned there?

What we have going on seems mild. But no one can overestimate the dumbness of government solutions to problems.

According to DNR Boat and Water statistics (http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/safety/boatw ... stics.html) in the last 10 years (if we can say we have a 9 month water season)... 6 water deaths occur every month, with about 2 due to boats. In the last 10 years, how many Minnesota deaths were due to kites? Seriously - how many?

The Wac DNR launch was made for BOATS... not for swimmers, windsurfers, or kiters. BOAT licensing fees keep it open. I think only 5% of boaters have any idea that a wind powered craft (kite, windsurfer, sailboat) has 'official' right of way. For all practical purposes you don't have right-of-way, you only have opportunities - only use the ones that are safe for everyone.

Here's another poke in the eye... the Instructors and Beginners have been hit again and again on this thread. How about the experienced kiters that buzz the launch/landing/beach area? What's that? In my experience it's not the beginners that draft close or jump just upwind of me for added excitement. You guessed it... it's the guys that should know better, the guys whose kiting skills (aside from these episodes) and all around wonderfulness I admire.

Have I said enough to push this to page 5? Will we set a new record?

Nate - thanks. You are doing well. I plan to make the ML Cleanup on the 28th, rake and bags in hand, and ready to listen to everyone's thoughts (even if there's no wind). Thanks.

[Nathan B]

Beach Clean up on Mille Lacs the 28th at Reddy Creek 11am to 3pm I will get a flyer up soon in a separate post.

Thanks Barry it will be great to have a helping hand on the 28th. and a rake and shovel is a great idea! there is a huge sand pile so as soon as we are done cleaning the beach from garbage we can level and clean up some launch zones.

Kitesurfers that attend We will meet after and have a small meeting, I understand everyone cant make the 28th But we will be having Meetings at Waconia the following week as planned. Looking at June 1st and 2nd for Waconia Meetings.