Snowboards

[Tighe]

I know this topic has probably been talked about before but I couldn't find the answers in the post I was able to bring up.

I currently ride an older Division snowboard. It is a directional board I guess because there is a bit more board on one side of the bindings and the nose flip is a bit bigger on that side. I do like the board for carving. It rides great in either direction heelside, and carves create heel or toeside. I think it may be a bit soft (it is old) because there isn't much spring in the carve to pop.

So my question. I've been looking at new boards. The Venture boards look great. Sounds like most have gone to the Helix for snowkiting. Anyone riding the Zephyr? Anyone gone from a directional to a twin? I'm concerned I'm going to loose some of the surfy carving feel of the directional going to a twin. Thoughts?

Are there characteristics, width, length, stiffness, rocker, etc that make a board better at carving? I rarely ride a straight line. Rocker seems to be the HOT new thing? Anyone know the theory behind it?

Am I looking for too much from a board to have a smooth carver and a board with agressive pop?

Any experience and knowledge on this topic would be appreciated.

[P R Key]

Tighe, I have been riding the Venture Helix the last couple of seasons and love it. I bought my brother the Zypher and he is loving it on the mountains but he has never kited with it yet. However...

Yesterday I rode my new Bataleon Goliath 157 wide and I was very surprised at how smooth and surfy it was. I was kind of hesitant on how it would edge with the TBT technology but it held an edge wonderfully. I think that the TBT construction has a ton to do with it even though I was skeptical about it. It has less side cut than the Helix and has more flex.

The Goliath doesn't seem to have the build quality as the Venture, but I don't care if I get 2 years out of it and have to buy a new one no biggie. I let Dennis demo hopefully he will chime in, he seemed to like it. If you or anyone else wants to borrow it for a day or two let me know. Its worth trying out! Check them out online at http://www.bataleon.com/en/.

[Kiter John]

The new camber boards are supposed to feel more like a surf/skate board...almost a little skittish underfoot. They're definitely more of a park board and likely pretty soft and flexy, so I'm not sure how they'll hold an edge on icy lake.

[Kosk]

I haven't ridden the new rocker boards, so I may be way off but, I would think for most of our "normal" kiting conditions, they wouldn't work as well as a traditional chamber board. Edging is pretty important in snowkiting. Unless you're jibbing around an on-ice rail park or deep pow all the time, I would stick with a camber board.

For a stiff and surfy feel, I would recommend looking for an all-mountain or freeride board. It will have more (deeper) side cut (equates to quicker edge-to-edge carving) and a stiffer profile. You can set the stance "centered" even though the hole pattern is set back. Don't be afraid to go a little longer either, it'll hold an edge better, and be more stable blasting through the crude at high speeds. Use the Burton Custom as a benchmark work from there.

That said, just about any snowboard will work for snowkiting.

I came into snowkiting after moving back home from Montana post-college. Riding all over the mountain and back country, I have come accustom to a 160-162cm freeride board (I'm 6foot). I've found that type of stick to work really well for kiting too, by just centering the stance.

And in case any other seasoned slidewayz-sliders out there are wondering, Flows got nothings on conventional 2 strap bindings, blah!

[Travii]

I like my Best kiteboard because of its large radius sidecut (18 m radius). This makes the edge look very straight which is great for holding an edge on long tacks. It is also way faster than my old K2 Union wide board (9 m radius) because I had to skid the rear out slightly when tacking. The Best board is a twin tip symmetric design and works good on both heelside and toeside.

[mdh01]

So, do different brands, cuts, models, etc of snowboards really make a noticeable difference? For the past four years I've used an old crappy 162 wide snowboard. Don't even know what brand it is - paid $80 at a ski swap.

For water kiting, I've used many different boards and finally settled on one I really like. Noticed a big difference between kiteboards, but never really thought much of the difference in snowboards for kiting. Looks like I should wise up and start exploring the difference in snowboards for kiting too!

Mark

[Matixsnow]

If your board has lost its pop, it could very well be cracked in the core. Sometimes you can't physically see it, but eventually your top sheet will delam from the rest of your board where the crack is.

Reverse camber (aka rocker) is everywhere now these days. K2, Libtech, Rossignol etc. all have their own line of reverse camber boards. It has exploded and even skis are being made with reverse camber. Some companies are strictly only making reverse camber boards.

There is a completely different feel when comparing a traditional camber board to a reverse camber board. 'Skiddish' is an accurate description for reverse camber. The carving aspect on a reverse camber board is something to get used to as your riding technique will slightly change. Reverse camber allows you to ride powder with ease as the board will rock back in the snow. Landings are much softer and forgiving. Dropping cliffs and jumps are easier as you can 'get away' with off centered landings.

For ice, I would highly recommend a board that has waved edges. Not sure what the technical term is, Lib-tech calls it magnatraction. It allows for much better contact in icy conditions. There is no change in riding technique, just that you can carve harder and easier on ice. It's rather amazing.

All in all, these modifications definitely can make riding more enjoyable, but are not necessarily preferred by everyone.

[kenais]

I moved from my old twin to a Lib Tech T. Rice this year. The rocker isn't all that noticeable behind a kite. The magne-traction is very noticeable. It really holds an edge on the lakes and I wouldn't purchase a new board for kiting that didn't have the wavy edges. Its different in that you edge with the area that is between the bindings instead of on the tips, I think that negates some of the concern with having a shallower side cut than a kite specific board.

[Travii]

Wow, I am way out of the loop on this reverse camber stuff. My boards are all traditional camber with sidecut. Interesting to see which way the industry is moving.

[Paul F]

Interesting topic, but I have a question too. I snowboard on a mountain and the sidecut is used to get the middle of the board off of the snow when you put the board on edge. The pressure of your feet causes the board to bend and turn. My question is wouldn't you want no sidecut on a kite board so when you are on edge you to go straight and grip more? Or is that springy bending the pop you are talking about?

[steveb]

Paul, I'm thinking your post just reversed the terms but I thought I'd join in the discussion for the hell of it.
The boards are designed so that when they flex during carving, your body weight bends the board so the side cut is driven into the snow creating a straight edge. The easy way to see this is to put your board on it's side on a hard surface, put your hands on your bindings and push, mimicking your body weight , you'll see the gap between the side cut radius and the flat surface lessen.
Whats really important is the torsional stiffness of the board, thats how stiff the board is from the toe to heel edge, boards that are not torsionally stiff don't hold an edge very well.
Pop comes from the stiffness and energy build into the board from nose to tail.
Magnatration seems to work well hooking up an edge but I don't like the feel of the edge release when I need it for a trick or something similar , this is a personal thing. I always detune my boards by blunting my edge on the wide spots of the nose and tail. This gives the board an easy release for any spinning /turning maneuver.
Reverse camber seemed kind of fun as it makes a board very loose in the middle , but I've yet to ride one of these boards , ( I've only ridden the j dub, t rice and crazy bananna ) that holds a high speed carved turn very well.
So it's all taste really. I like regular camber, fairly large sidecut radius , with lots of torsional stiffness and energy nose to tail. On mountains I like to ride fast and carve hard till I get to the really steep stuff then I want a board which responds well to torsional flex steering for tight turns in small spaces. I'm not much of a park rat so I don't get the benefits from a reverse camber board.

[Tighe]

Thanks guys lots of great info. Unfortunately the choice isn't any clearer.

Are most directionals only intended to be ridden one way? The thing I like about the DIvision 23 Enforcer is that while it is directional it rides fine as a twin. It's sorta like the FUSE of snowboards. I didn't even know it was directional til someone pointed it out. Is this common, or if I go with another directional will I sacrifice twin tip riding significantly. If I go with a twin will I sacrifice that surfy carving feeling of a directional?

Short or longer? Longer is smoother right? Shorter better for pop.

Weird, I think I know a fair bit about kiteboards but I still feel a bit clueless about snowboards.

Here are my criteria in order of importance.
Smoothness/comfort
Versatility
Carving
Pop

I weigh around 195 and am 6'1"

again thanks for all the great info.

[Matixsnow]

I am 6' 3" 195lbs and ride 164s. Versatile size for pow, cliffs, groomers and kites.

Don't go short unless you are going to be hitting rails and jibs. If anything go long if your primary intent is kiting.

If you want a board to do it all (more than just strictly for kiting), a more twin tip style is probably what you would want, but that does not mean the tip and tail need to be equal proportions. They do make twin tip style boards that are intended for pretty much anything. As stated above, the T. Rice Lib Tech board is a jack of all trades for all sorts of terrain. There are several other companies that make boards with the similar intent.

I would find it fun to own a directional for kiting as carving would be slightly smoother and pristine. However, riding switch on a true directional can be a little tricky.

[steveb]

Tighe. A directional the stance on the board is set back , an average mountain setback is .75 cm. the reason for this is it helps the nose of the board ride up in pow.
Additionally the sidecut is setback the same amount. There's different sidecut radius, tri radial , quadratic etc. if a directional board has a standard radius it'll ride backwards OK. if not typically riding backwards the board will be dealing with a sharper radius, so it'll turn into the wind faster than riding in the normal direction. Making riding on the backward tack awkward.
The nose of a directional board has more flex than the tail , it helps the nose float up over pow. And when starting a turn it allows the nose to curve more into the turn speeding up the turn intiation. The less flex in the tail helps the torsional stiffness of the board to handle the extra preassure on the board as it finishes a turn.
A long winded way of saying a directional board will feel different being ridden backwards. Not saying it won't work, it will, it'll just initiate turning upwind faster and if you weight the nose too much you'll be able to bury it more easily than on the true direction of the design.
A twin tip has the stance set in the middle, the radius set in the middle and the same flex nose and tail. So for kiting it'll feel the same on both tacks.
Your slashy turny feel has nothing to do with directional or twin, it has to do with the nose/tail flex. Board radius and torsional stiffnes. A really soft nose tail will initiate turns quickly. But chatter at high speed.
A small radius will make the board turn tighter, but for kiting it'll turn up wind with very little edge engaged. A torsionally soft board will allow really tight turns with little input from the feet, but it won't hold an edge at high speed.
So like all fluid designs everythings a compromise. Too much of x negates y etc.etc. Many of todays twin tips are so well designed you can use them as big mountain boards for regular snowboarding. Something that would have been unheard of a few years ago. Twin tip boards were park noodles, awesome for tricks in the park, crap on a mountain. Today there are many designs which are a super compromise.
For snowkiting I don't think any one will make an argument for choosing a directional ( I could be wrong) in kiteboarding terms it'd be like riding a mutant you can't gybe.
There's plenty of good Twins out there to choose from.
I hope this helps a little.

[Tighe]

Thanks for the clarification guys. That really helped.

[tom_latcham]

I don't know as much about it as the other posters. However you are welcome to try my board. It is the Twisted snowboard by Velacity. Designed by kiters for kiters. It is 164 in length so is stable at high speeds. It has reverse side cut. So it goes straight when set on edge. Yet it carves nice when you want it to. It has reverse camber front to rear and side to side (Banana). So it is harder to catch an edge. I only use a snow board in deep or heavy snow. The kind that trips you on skis unless you ride wide powder or crud buster skis. Then I like a snow board. So I am not sure how well it would work on hard pack or ice. A stiff board with magna traction might be best for that. But you are welcome to try it for comparison. It is surfy in the fluffy.
Tom Latcham

[BBAddict]

Tom,

That is the right application for that snowboard. It is a board designed by Ozone--or Twisted Kiteboards--specifically for kiteboarding. It looks like a lot of the new kiteboards coming out have the same concept of different (reverse) sidecut, true twin, flex designed for popping off the snow. There are a couple companies doing them now, but most of them do look like they would be better in the powder and not so good on crud. If you want an all-around, then a standard snowboard might be best. I just picked up a Venture Zephyr (rockered) snowboard this year and, while it's not a true twin, it is not so directional that it inhibits riding switch or kiting with it. I can pretty much guarantee there's nothing to not like about this board, unless you really like a wet noodle. You might want to check out the Bataleon boards too--they have some pretty novel design ideas for making boards more forgiving and a little skatey for people that like to carve a lot. I think Jeremy from Velocity Kiting has one to check out.

Seth

[seamonkey]

Whatevever happened to Nathan B.? He would have something to say, but most likely has retreated to his lair. Hi Nate!

[steveb]

As the Ozone rep you think I'd be all over the page touting the wonders of the Twisted board. In pow it's damned hard to beat.
But....on our usual hardpack the design does not work very well, take my word for it as I scared the hell out of myself trying to make it work.

If you want a kiteboard for those days we get deep snow the twisteds about as good as it gets, it's been designed to give the same kind of feel in pow as a water kite board on water, and in pow it does.
On hardpack it'll hold an edge but because of the reverse side cut you're holding an edge on a small area just behind the rear binding, difficult to maintain edge contact and very difficult to hold the edge for jumping. But it's not designed for hardpack.
I've found it difficult to justify raving about them for us here in the midwest as we ,unfortunately, get so few pow days.

[Nathan B]

ha wat up Mike! yep in the lair but still lurking the forum from time to time, btw hows that McKink?

lots of good info in here for ya Tighe, I would recommend a tru twin 159 up to a 164 for your specs.
on the whole reverse camber thing and magne traction I think they are a added bonus for sure!
Rocker=good snowkiting all around, pop, carving, etc.
magne traction=amazing edging, chews up the ruff stuff

one thing that I did not see mentioned that I seen is that it is helpful to have a wide board for snowkiting!
I know the Venture boards are some of the widest boards on the market(correct me if i am wrong steve), which is sick! plus if you have a size 10mens or bigger you should be on a wide or midewide board for any kind of snowboarding via kite or wat ev.

I am riding for Aboards and I feel they make a Killer snowboard for snowkiting and snowboarding. used it a whole season on the mtns. and hills before using with the kite to make sure. Loving it behind the kite.
http://www.aboards.us/ Please let me know if anyone wants to take it for a ride.