Next Level Help....tips

[Dean Rizer]

In late March early April I had 14 great days in Padre. I accomplished all my goals except...a simple back spin. The Progression CD is very straightforward re kite position, speed, use of legs for take off, head and shoulder rotation and hands mid bar. Somewhere after initiation about 70% of the time I pull hard with my back hand initiating a kite loop, great trick, but not the one I want to complete, it's hard on my body and kites. I can't see myself so I have no clue as to why I'm doing that. I'm able to spin on land under a trainer, and somtimes I can get all the way around on the water but there is no consistancy. Judd once suggested spinning under the chicken loop. When I am concious of trying that I tend to spin flat. Any ideas/ tips? Thanks!

[BBAddict]

I nailed the back spin this spring in Padre--great place to learn these new tricks cause I had plenty of the same issues you described and some other ones like doing 720's, 1080's and all kinds of other rotations that left me looking the wrong way.
Anyway, I finally got it with a few changes that I'll relate and will hopefully help. For me, I started out trying to do it kinda like a back roll, carving upwind and taking off kinda using the water as a ramp like described in the progression series. That didn't work! What did work was just starting the jump the same way I would usually jump and then turning/throwing my head and front shoulder backward to initiate the turn. That way the spin was a lot more controlled, and I was spinning upright instead of parallel to the water like a back roll.
The second thing was spotting the landing and landing heading the right direction. I would just sheet out and pull down more with the front hand to ride it out. Bringing the kite down back toward 10 or 10:30 or whatever helped come down when I wanted to instead of hanging in the air still spinning.
I also had issues at first with the kite ending up at the wrong side--I think it's just due to pulling with the wrong hand while in the air. It's true that it's just a matter of keeping the pressure on the front hand but that might get confusing while you're spinning around. There's a couple things that helped me. The first time I nailed it, I actually put my back hand on the front of the bar after I sent it, so it was almost impossible to send it to far back and do the dreaded kite loop you're describing. After that, and what I still do is to put my front hand farther away from center and bring my back hand right next to center. That way the front hand pressure is exaggerated compared to the back hand pressure. The other thing I tried for awhile is making sure I didn't oversend the kite. I have a tendency to oversend the kite trying to get that extra yank out of the water, but I found that was certainly not needed, especially just for a 360, so I just make sure I send it to 12 for the jump and then initiate the spin after I'm in the air, keeping it around 12 until I want to start bringing it back forward.
Hope this help a little!

Seth

[Dean Rizer]

Hey Seth, you accomplished exacttly what I was trying to do! One thing that struck me as I was reading your post; when initiating my spin or back roll I was never sure if I was going to try a flat spin, a board above head 360, or a vertical jumping spin. That visualzation was never part of the prep. Your suggested hand placement makes a lot of sense. Do you think starting out with a vertical jump spin would be easier, then move to the board over head 360 spin? I was able to figure out the jump transition turn and I kept thinking "wouldn't it be easy to do a vertical spin? Sounds like it is.

Thanks Seth, where do you ride locally?

[wings]

I had the same problem when I was first learning them. Just manually tell yourself what your correcting hand is (the front) thoughout the move, outloud if you must (nobody will hear you).

Also, go for the vertical rolls...

[BBAddict]

Hi Dean,
I know we've met briefly at Garrison anyway. I ride most of the time at Waconia or Mille Lacs, when I'm not up north riding Cass Lake, Lake Bemidji, Lake of the Woods and a couple other northwoods hidden secrets--if they weren't so far away they'd be the only the place to ride--very Mille Lacs like, if not better. When we met, I certainly wasn't trying any of this. I was just hoping to learn to jump, but a couple trips to Padre later I've gotten some things dialed in.
It is definitely easy to do a vertical spin, I guess it's called a back spin as opposed to a back roll. The way you initiate it depends what kind of 360 you're trying to do. Your rotation will just depend on what direction you throw your head and shoulder. For a vertical back spin, I just twist like I'm looking over my back shoulder. For an inverted it's kind of a mix of the spin and a dead man because you still use your head and shoulders to initiate the spin but you want to dip them as well and pull your knees in to get the inversion as well. This video might help... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y06UtJeWkFw You can see how his knees pull in, pulling in the knee on the side you want to spin toward first. Also, his head and shoulder motion is backward/downward (kinda arching backward) as well as turning to get the spin going backwards and well as downward to get the 360 and inversion simultaneously. Just make sure you get uninverted!
It's definitely logical to start with a vertical spin and then work toward the inverted spin because you'll get the upper body aspect from the vertical spin then it just takes a tweak of that and the lower body addition for the inversion. I expect to see one next time we meet on the water!
I haven't done one yet, but I think you can do an inverted roll by bringing your board higher during a back roll--same was as a back roll, but making the rotation with some vertical as much as horizontal spin. That's probably harder because you're not sending the kite, so it all has to come from the pop of the board off the water from carving upwind, but it's something to shoot for.

[Dean Rizer]

In one of the recent Kiteboarding mags there was an article about a Best school where trampolines were used for spatial awareness. Made a lot of sense to me. Is Tumblemonster still doing that? I like the idea of talking to myself. I hope I'm listening. Seth I'm definitely going to get that back spin dialed soon. I was really disapointed I couldn't get it done in the clean winds at the flats. Something to look forward to this spring.

[RobH]

Funny how the brain doesnt always do what its suppose to do when inverted, nothing like thinking your executing the backroll only to see you have been lofted and the kite is somewhere below you - feeling like the Coyote in the road runner cartoons. If only that was on purpose it would be so cool - back roll with kite loop - yah I planned it that way! Anyways - agree on the magical front hand focus to exit out of the roll. I remember Chris B saying start landing you tricks with more speed so it makes sense the following your kite on the exit by directing it would help keep things under control. Course that means sqaut if you dont initiate it correctly

[drknap]

Dean
I spoke with your primary MD today and he said you are too old for this type of activity. j/k he said your were his healtiest 50 year old patient.


Try doing a back roll WITHOUT sending the kite. Park your kite at 60 degrees or so, find a ramp, load and pop of the wake, twist and follow your head and shoulder around as you normally would. You will be suprised how high you can get without sending the kite and you doin't have to worry about unintentional kite loops

[Eric P]

I would add to Kurt's post the suggestion that you be going fast when you hit the lip, and drop the back hand from the bar, so you do not loop the kite unintentionally. Dropping the hand also give you the opportunity to get better balance in the air, and spot your landing. Hit it hard, hit it fast, and keep the kite low.

[Dean Rizer]

Kurt you ANW guys have kept me in the games I like to play. I was watching you and Avery the other day at Ramsey and to Eric's point you were going in faster. I didn't pay attention to your kite or hand positioning on the bar. I was watching the hand position of the landboarder in Seth's post. He always dopped his back hand and the kite always moved into the zone. Do you guys think the verticle back spin would be the next logical move or do you think trying a faster back roll would be better? I think I've somehow been trying to both at once. I'll get it soon!!

[JRN]

DEAN, I was close to dialing it at Padre, but still have some of the same issues, except the loop. I am getting around without the boost, but my board is sticking to the surface. Jerry S. tells me to pop 1st & then initiate the roll. Eric's idea of dropping the back hand sounds good. LEGENDARY Jerry sez to put your back hand around the CL line and the front hand next to that. Who sez us "Old Cats" can't learn new tricks?

[Tighe]

Just for clarification. It's my understanding that the back roll is a no whip rotation, whereas a Back Spin includes the sending of kite. I'd start with a roll to get the rotation down and then just ad the jump. A powered up backroll with the kite high, has the body doing almost the same motion as a spin.

Back rolls are all about the load and pop. Just pop and continue the motion around. You can then inch the kite up a bit at a time to give you more time in the air.

have fun.

[Dean Rizer]

Thanks, everyones tips/ experience is very helpful. Somehow I confused rolls and spins. Now when I visualize what I am going to do it will one or the other.

[tumblemonster]

I started reading this thread and immediately thought to post exactly what Tighe said. It's much easier to learn a roll when you isolate the roll and don't have to worry about the kite. Park it, load and pop. Learn the rotation and pop independently and you'll learn it faster and be more consistent as you move forward. Also, if possible work on this on a steady day. Learning to roll in gusty conditions is another variable you don't need when you're trying to land your trick for the first time.

To answer your other question, yes, I still do tramp training. It was hard for folks to get there for a weekly class, so I'm setting up a pay as you go class that anyone can attend whenever they like. I'll post it in the classified section when I've got it all planned out. Might not be until the end of summer, gotta ride!