Click on the link below for the video of Terry's tow-up. It is meant to discourage you from trying something like this. It is dangerous and the consequences are not worth it. DO NOT TRY THIS!
http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseacti ... d=26278916
Tow-Up Video: Do Not Try This!
Moderator: MK
I don't kite so I have a couple of questions if it is OK to discuss the accident. I am not a pilot either, but it looked like when he let go, his weight swung back and he stopped forward motion which stalled the kite. As I understand it when an airplane stalls, it loses all control and lift and spins into the ground. I don't think Terry had a hope of controlling the kite no matter how he gripped the bar.
My question is can this happen during normal kiting? I know you don't go that high, but can the kite stall? Or am I way off?
My question is can this happen during normal kiting? I know you don't go that high, but can the kite stall? Or am I way off?
The scary thing is this can happen during normal kiting. It will generally happen when you are on small gusty lakes.
Once you figure out jumping you can go that high in the right conditions.. safely and unsafely. terry was/is a big fan of big air.. I've seen him 30feet up countless times.
What can happen?
A gust hits so you send the kite... it RIPS you up 30 40 feet... a gust to 30 can go to nothing in seconds, and you fall... fast. I have had this happen to me on the water. It’s scary to think of it happening on the ice but it can. Best thing you could do is ride big wide open lakes with at least 2 miles of fetch in each direction upwind. Learn where the wind is normally consistent and only jump in those areas. The shoreline can cause the wind to do funky things... if the wind is side shore it will occasionally switch to almost off shore for a ways out because the shore seams to cause a swirl effect.
waconia in my opinion is the best and safest lake in the metro area to do BIG air kiteboarding.. as long as your are in the right spot on the lake. (downwind shoreline).
evean better is Mille Lacs... by far the smoothest wind in the state. which = safest rideing location.
anybody who goes big over calhoon is a litle nutty (In my mind)
Jon
Once you figure out jumping you can go that high in the right conditions.. safely and unsafely. terry was/is a big fan of big air.. I've seen him 30feet up countless times.
What can happen?
A gust hits so you send the kite... it RIPS you up 30 40 feet... a gust to 30 can go to nothing in seconds, and you fall... fast. I have had this happen to me on the water. It’s scary to think of it happening on the ice but it can. Best thing you could do is ride big wide open lakes with at least 2 miles of fetch in each direction upwind. Learn where the wind is normally consistent and only jump in those areas. The shoreline can cause the wind to do funky things... if the wind is side shore it will occasionally switch to almost off shore for a ways out because the shore seams to cause a swirl effect.
waconia in my opinion is the best and safest lake in the metro area to do BIG air kiteboarding.. as long as your are in the right spot on the lake. (downwind shoreline).
evean better is Mille Lacs... by far the smoothest wind in the state. which = safest rideing location.
anybody who goes big over calhoon is a litle nutty (In my mind)
Jon
Last edited by Stroh on Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:39 am, edited 4 times in total.
Jon Stroh
I was looking closely at the video too, trying to figure out what caused the wing to loose lift so quickly. It probably was a stall caused by 2 things. Turning the kite sharply causes the inside wing tip to go much slower than the outside tip, so the inside tip was probably losing flow over the foil, and stalling. The wing may also have had to high of angle of attack (AOA) for it's speed and that helped cause a stall. The counterintuitive method to get out of a stall is to push the stick forward (push out the bar). Kiters are generally too low to counteract a stall, much the same as most stalls with an airplane take-off or landing are too low to correct resulting in a crash. A stall at altitude is easy to get out of and practiced often by pilots to learn the low speed characteristics of a plane.
Maybe Coach, being a pilot could comment. I would guess that some kiters when they really go big are easily at this hight, above snow/ice. Something to think about. Most of us who are comfortable jumping on water use the same techniques on snow and end up going just as high.
Maybe Coach, being a pilot could comment. I would guess that some kiters when they really go big are easily at this hight, above snow/ice. Something to think about. Most of us who are comfortable jumping on water use the same techniques on snow and end up going just as high.
I just watched old footage of Alex Peterson doing a towup with his kite. He had lots of paragliding experience, and the interesting thing about it is that in zero wind he holds onto the tow rope at all times-- for ascent and landing. Once he lets go and falls pretty hard. Kites are not meant to hold a person in the air with no wind flowing over them-- body weight is not enough for a soft landing. The kite loop only made it worse for Terry.
All of this supports what Stroh says. I had a pretty hard drop on a windy 7m day on WBL when the wind cut out several weeks back, and I smacked my head hard on the ice. All of this has me thinking more about the risks I take, especially on hard surfaces. Blasting at 60+mph across bumpy ice may not be the wisest goal for the season either. I have a family who depends on me, and to gamble their well-being for a few extra thrills is just plain wrong.
All of this supports what Stroh says. I had a pretty hard drop on a windy 7m day on WBL when the wind cut out several weeks back, and I smacked my head hard on the ice. All of this has me thinking more about the risks I take, especially on hard surfaces. Blasting at 60+mph across bumpy ice may not be the wisest goal for the season either. I have a family who depends on me, and to gamble their well-being for a few extra thrills is just plain wrong.
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Professor Robae'
- Posts: 353
- Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:18 pm
- Location: Minnetonka
Very good points Stroh. I have done a lot of winter kiting with Vojta, especially in the early years of the sport around these parts: 99, 00, 01, 02, 03. I would love to know the number of miles and air time he put on his trusty, yellow & orange Naish 9M AR-5 (I had one too); staggering numbers no doubt. As you know, Vojta has absolutely no fear and would send his kite and edge so aggressively it would scare you. Obviously the result was huge air, any time, on demand.
In the beginning one thing he liked to do was send his kite near shore points looking for the thrill of the double boost when you would be hit by a new, stronger gust during your jump. The problem was that sometimes the wind would lull instead of gust and yes, the results in these cases were not pretty; even for the V man. I saw him drop like a stone a number of times hurting himself pretty good on a few occasions. After a particularly brutal heel bruising he finally said, “ya know, it’s just to sketchy hucking near shore like that, I’m not going to do it anymore.”
Another good lesson learned from the V man…
In the beginning one thing he liked to do was send his kite near shore points looking for the thrill of the double boost when you would be hit by a new, stronger gust during your jump. The problem was that sometimes the wind would lull instead of gust and yes, the results in these cases were not pretty; even for the V man. I saw him drop like a stone a number of times hurting himself pretty good on a few occasions. After a particularly brutal heel bruising he finally said, “ya know, it’s just to sketchy hucking near shore like that, I’m not going to do it anymore.”
Another good lesson learned from the V man…
Here is a really nice post about Terry (read all the way to the bottom) from someone who knows him much better than I. It's obvious from seeing him ride he's a very talented athlete which makes it harder to imagine him being laid up for a considerable amount of time.
I know I would like to see him back out there as soon as possible providing inspiration. It's guys like this who open the door for hackers like me to think we can be sporty, if only in our Walter Mitty imaginations!
http://www.mnkiting.com/joomla/index.ph ... mitstart=0
I know I would like to see him back out there as soon as possible providing inspiration. It's guys like this who open the door for hackers like me to think we can be sporty, if only in our Walter Mitty imaginations!
http://www.mnkiting.com/joomla/index.ph ... mitstart=0
Mark F
I just watched the video while catching up on LAKAWA news after a bit of a hiatus.
There are two times in flying airplanes that are the most dangerous - takeoff and landing. Basically, any time you are close to the ground.
The amazing thing is that Terry didn't really hit that hard. He was still under some lift from the kite. The kite was looping, so he was coming down quickly, but nothing even close to a free-fall. He was swinging under the kite a bit (perhaps that's why he started to loop it?), so that plus the loop took a fair amount of lift away. I'd guess that it was still no more than 1/4 free-fall.
There was no real magic aerodynamic principal to it. Coming down fairly hard with your feet locked into ski boots. He never got that far off the ground - definitely not enough room to loop the kite.
Ouch. That's why I'm not a big fan of big jumps winter kiting on the lakes - it's like landing on cement.
-Coach
There are two times in flying airplanes that are the most dangerous - takeoff and landing. Basically, any time you are close to the ground.
The amazing thing is that Terry didn't really hit that hard. He was still under some lift from the kite. The kite was looping, so he was coming down quickly, but nothing even close to a free-fall. He was swinging under the kite a bit (perhaps that's why he started to loop it?), so that plus the loop took a fair amount of lift away. I'd guess that it was still no more than 1/4 free-fall.
There was no real magic aerodynamic principal to it. Coming down fairly hard with your feet locked into ski boots. He never got that far off the ground - definitely not enough room to loop the kite.
Ouch. That's why I'm not a big fan of big jumps winter kiting on the lakes - it's like landing on cement.
-Coach
Yeah, I'm sure it lost some lift in that turn, but not as much as you may think. Angle of attack and apparent wind are all that matter. There was plenty of forward motion in the kite = apparent wind.
However, the swing and the turn downwind also put the kite in a shallow dive. Really, look at the video and he's just not coming down that fast - but fast enough...
Oh - and there have been several posts about the kite "stalling." The kite never stalls. It always has plenty of apparent wind... It just ends up in that shallow dive. I'm guessing there was never a consequential gust, either. Any feelings of changes in the wind were probably induced by swinging under the kite and the turning of it - all changes in angle of attack to the apparent wind.
-Coach
However, the swing and the turn downwind also put the kite in a shallow dive. Really, look at the video and he's just not coming down that fast - but fast enough...
Oh - and there have been several posts about the kite "stalling." The kite never stalls. It always has plenty of apparent wind... It just ends up in that shallow dive. I'm guessing there was never a consequential gust, either. Any feelings of changes in the wind were probably induced by swinging under the kite and the turning of it - all changes in angle of attack to the apparent wind.
-Coach
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steveb
- Posts: 2146
- Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:31 pm
- Location: sblain@frontiernet.net
I had an elevator ride with no brakes on the return trip last year.
My mistake was I was close to shore in a onshore breeze, the wind rose over the bank lifting quite a way from shore. So when I jumped,not thinking, I got quite an upshoot, once the kite was above the rising air their was no support and I came down from 15 or 20 feet like a rock. If I remember rightly Kurt and Nancy were having a conversational break and saw my whoops.
I had enough time to think " this is going to hurt" I managed to get my boards edge to hit first, which absorbed some of the shock, the board shot out from under me and I hit ass, back , shoulders , head in that order.
Stevens new rule for self, don't jump close to shore in an onshore breeze......it hurts
My mistake was I was close to shore in a onshore breeze, the wind rose over the bank lifting quite a way from shore. So when I jumped,not thinking, I got quite an upshoot, once the kite was above the rising air their was no support and I came down from 15 or 20 feet like a rock. If I remember rightly Kurt and Nancy were having a conversational break and saw my whoops.
I had enough time to think " this is going to hurt" I managed to get my boards edge to hit first, which absorbed some of the shock, the board shot out from under me and I hit ass, back , shoulders , head in that order.
Stevens new rule for self, don't jump close to shore in an onshore breeze......it hurts
Regional Ozone Team rider