Good discussion.
I was at WBL pole boarding Sunday and the lake was packed at Ramsey. I saw 1 or 2 kiters out there that were doing just fine and as far as I could tell they launched way outside of the beach area and stayed clear of it.
Later 2 guys showed up and did launch just upwind of the swimming area. They did fine, but it made me nervous as if anything bad would have happened there were a lot of people just downwind of them. It only take s something bad to happen once.
Another guy ask me about kiting there and I pointed him towards this site also.
On the flip side, lake Washington was great on Monday and the newbies (myself totally included) had plenty of space to walk way out into the lake away from anything. You can never have enough open space when learning.
I think the biggest thing new people to the sport need to learn is respect for the power that the kite can generate. I think most people who are brand new way underestimate it. This respect should hopefully cause you to use your brain and think first.
Just my 3 cents.
Mike N
SUPER SCARY AT THE WAC YESTERDAY
Moderator: MK
A problem is that kiting is often perceived, and marketed, as something anyone can do anywhere. It's not. While manufacturers have made progress in informing people that optimal kiting is actually highly site and conditions specific, their marketing default remains an X-Games strategy in which big air, wild parties, and teen hotties figure prominently. Nothing new here, of course, but the disconnect between kiting media and practice grows more ominous in the face of mounting local access struggles and the spector of last season's worldwide kiting death toll of 16. It would indeed be sad to lose the privilege of our local sites should one kook or pro momentarily lose control. But this, in a risky sport, is a risk we must face.
Communication, not certification.
Communication, not certification.
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thenamessean04
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:11 pm
Hey everyone! After a little technical difficulty Here is my acount of what hppened at waconia. I realize this thread has changes course a little but better late than never right? Here is what I emailed Tighe:
"When I first saw the guy with the Green and black Yarga I was walking back from helping someone that had kite trouble north of the boat launch. We got his gear back to the launch and I walked out to see what the guy with the Yarga was doing. His 39 year old friend ( I started talking to him and asking him what the hell his friend was trying to do) who has never been in the water was standing on the inside of the C with the leading edge down trying to control the kite from pulling down wind. It looked like the guy with the control bar was trying to untangle his lines which is basically impossible when the kite is pulling with the leading edge down, especially with as much wind as we had yesterday. Anyways, I grabbed onto the leading edge and flipped the kite over onto its back so the helper could actually hold onto the kite. "yarga guy" as I will call him started yelling at me to stop but then when he realized that by me flipping his kite over it had stopped pulling he went back to figuring out his lines. While I was holding the leading edge I started talking to the helper and showing him that as long as he had control of the leading edge that the kite couldn't go anywhere and other various basic info. I was asking him a bunch of questions about "yarga guy" like whether he knew what the hell he was doing and he made it sound like he did.
When He finally got his lines figured out he asked me to put the leading edge back down on the water. I asked if he wanted me to launch him but he said no. I just figured he wanted to practice water re-launches or something. When I walked away there were no other pedestrians in the water. I walked out to land someone's kite. Between the time of me landing the kite and me starting to walk back toward "yarga guy" to tell him to move it downwind the windsurfer whom the kite crashed onto came back into shore and his kids and wife went into the water to greet him.
(I wrote the fallowing part first and then decided to include the pre-crash story so sorry if the tenses don't match up)
I had just landed someone's kite when I saw the guy with the green and black Yarga over by the docks. He didn't look like he had any idea what he was doing. When I started walking over to tell him to move it down wind the guy actually DISCONNECTED his safety leash to untwist it. He disconnected the Velcro wrist leach from his arm and started untwisting it from his line. The entire time he was doing this he had his kite land side (facing the shore) When he was messing around with his leash he tried steering with only one hand and stopped looking at the kite. As soon as this happened the kite dove and crashed not more than 5 feet from the docks. As soon as this happened I started running over. The kite then re-launched and dragged him about 10 feet toward shore while the kite almost went into the trees. Upon seeing that his kite was going into the trees, the guy brought the kite back over toward the water but at the same time it ended up crashing on the windsurfer, his wife, and two kids. When I say it crashed on them I mean it Crashed directly onto his rig and the leading edge went directly between the man and his wife and kids. It was crazy. Thankfully one of the windsurfers ran over when he heard the crash and was able to get a hold of the leading edge before I got there. I could not believe that nobody was hurt.
So Tighe that is what I saw from being in the water abut 100 feet from all of the action."
So that's what I saw from wading in the water. Feel free to add any more details from when I wasn't watching. Hopefully because of this it will never happen again.
"When I first saw the guy with the Green and black Yarga I was walking back from helping someone that had kite trouble north of the boat launch. We got his gear back to the launch and I walked out to see what the guy with the Yarga was doing. His 39 year old friend ( I started talking to him and asking him what the hell his friend was trying to do) who has never been in the water was standing on the inside of the C with the leading edge down trying to control the kite from pulling down wind. It looked like the guy with the control bar was trying to untangle his lines which is basically impossible when the kite is pulling with the leading edge down, especially with as much wind as we had yesterday. Anyways, I grabbed onto the leading edge and flipped the kite over onto its back so the helper could actually hold onto the kite. "yarga guy" as I will call him started yelling at me to stop but then when he realized that by me flipping his kite over it had stopped pulling he went back to figuring out his lines. While I was holding the leading edge I started talking to the helper and showing him that as long as he had control of the leading edge that the kite couldn't go anywhere and other various basic info. I was asking him a bunch of questions about "yarga guy" like whether he knew what the hell he was doing and he made it sound like he did.
When He finally got his lines figured out he asked me to put the leading edge back down on the water. I asked if he wanted me to launch him but he said no. I just figured he wanted to practice water re-launches or something. When I walked away there were no other pedestrians in the water. I walked out to land someone's kite. Between the time of me landing the kite and me starting to walk back toward "yarga guy" to tell him to move it downwind the windsurfer whom the kite crashed onto came back into shore and his kids and wife went into the water to greet him.
(I wrote the fallowing part first and then decided to include the pre-crash story so sorry if the tenses don't match up)
I had just landed someone's kite when I saw the guy with the green and black Yarga over by the docks. He didn't look like he had any idea what he was doing. When I started walking over to tell him to move it down wind the guy actually DISCONNECTED his safety leash to untwist it. He disconnected the Velcro wrist leach from his arm and started untwisting it from his line. The entire time he was doing this he had his kite land side (facing the shore) When he was messing around with his leash he tried steering with only one hand and stopped looking at the kite. As soon as this happened the kite dove and crashed not more than 5 feet from the docks. As soon as this happened I started running over. The kite then re-launched and dragged him about 10 feet toward shore while the kite almost went into the trees. Upon seeing that his kite was going into the trees, the guy brought the kite back over toward the water but at the same time it ended up crashing on the windsurfer, his wife, and two kids. When I say it crashed on them I mean it Crashed directly onto his rig and the leading edge went directly between the man and his wife and kids. It was crazy. Thankfully one of the windsurfers ran over when he heard the crash and was able to get a hold of the leading edge before I got there. I could not believe that nobody was hurt.
So Tighe that is what I saw from being in the water abut 100 feet from all of the action."
So that's what I saw from wading in the water. Feel free to add any more details from when I wasn't watching. Hopefully because of this it will never happen again.
Sean Cunliffe
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freejoshua7
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:07 pm
I think I was on the water at the same time that this occurred and to be fair to the anonymous kiter, if its the guy I'm thinking of, he did wade his kite out at least three lines lengths away from shore and no one was swimming when he left the bank. I would never let my kids swim at that launch, its not a swimming beach, but thats not something we can control and its not the point. An accident almost happened.
That being said the wind was shifting pretty hard from sw to w, and to quote the lakes section "The west winds are directly onshore and can be dangerous if you can't immediately shoot upwind." This website covered itself in this particular situation, the kiter chose not to heed the warning. Its amazing how easy it is to read/listen to what you want and ignore everything else.
But its not Tighe's or the sites responsibility to educate new kiters and windsurfers, unless they pay for lessons. It is each individuals responsibility to learn what conditions and locales they are prepared for, this site is a tool not the last word in your education. No one should rely on it absolutely or blame it for any occurence. Just be thankful that it exists and creates a sense of community. Where would wind sports in Minnesota be without it? Half of the kiters would still be playing video games and watching reruns of Friends. So as a Windsurfer, thanks Tighe, thanks alot. Just kidding, I think sailing with kiters enhances the experience and it 'd be a shame to think catamarans are the next coolest thing on the water after poleboarding. So don't get banned.
That being said the wind was shifting pretty hard from sw to w, and to quote the lakes section "The west winds are directly onshore and can be dangerous if you can't immediately shoot upwind." This website covered itself in this particular situation, the kiter chose not to heed the warning. Its amazing how easy it is to read/listen to what you want and ignore everything else.
But its not Tighe's or the sites responsibility to educate new kiters and windsurfers, unless they pay for lessons. It is each individuals responsibility to learn what conditions and locales they are prepared for, this site is a tool not the last word in your education. No one should rely on it absolutely or blame it for any occurence. Just be thankful that it exists and creates a sense of community. Where would wind sports in Minnesota be without it? Half of the kiters would still be playing video games and watching reruns of Friends. So as a Windsurfer, thanks Tighe, thanks alot. Just kidding, I think sailing with kiters enhances the experience and it 'd be a shame to think catamarans are the next coolest thing on the water after poleboarding. So don't get banned.
All - new to the posts but certainly not new to Lakawa (great site btw). I'm not a long time Minnesota kiter, but I've hit Wac a few times and love the lake, great setting and great watersport vibe.
I have this question - what are the odds of negotiating with the appropriate authorities (DNR..?? dunno who this is) about making the Northeast primary summer launch location more accessible and safer for both kiters and winders? For example, some minor tree clearing west of the parking lot area, physical or logical (publically posted) "launch zone" and "no fly zone(s)". I know kiters are second, third...ninth on the beach priority list but perhaps its possible to improve safety for all parties. Maybe this is a pie in the sky and maybe this all been asked before, but just curious if it would a) a possiblity / option b) help with safety issues.
I have this question - what are the odds of negotiating with the appropriate authorities (DNR..?? dunno who this is) about making the Northeast primary summer launch location more accessible and safer for both kiters and winders? For example, some minor tree clearing west of the parking lot area, physical or logical (publically posted) "launch zone" and "no fly zone(s)". I know kiters are second, third...ninth on the beach priority list but perhaps its possible to improve safety for all parties. Maybe this is a pie in the sky and maybe this all been asked before, but just curious if it would a) a possiblity / option b) help with safety issues.
skattum- from what i've heard re:boat launch on the wac is that we're on pretty thin ground with the DNR already and they're just looking for some way to get rid of all our parking spots. if they don't even care to offer us parking, i have a feeling that in the name of safety they'd opt to ban it before they'd clear trees n stuff.
Sean:
Thanks for sharing your account and trying to help. I did not witness any of the crash, I just saw the black/green Yarga being set up by the boat ramp.
At that point the guy was pretty close to shore, but had someone else with him and I didn't see a board so I was hoping they were just getting the lines straight before moving to a more appropriate launch position. It sounds like this got pretty ugly.
A simple sign at the Wac would be a good thing I think to help with this sort of situation. All it would need to say is kiters stay clear of other lake users and launch downwind. A caution about the suitability of the lake for beginners would also be appropriate I think.
I think it would be a LOT easier to ask someone setting up in a bad area if read they the sign. Otherwise it's hard not to sound like a busybody telling someone they need to move.
Anyway, this is the type of thing a common organization such as Fleet 8 could address I would think. I just joined for this year and hopefully things like this will get discussed.
Thanks for sharing your account and trying to help. I did not witness any of the crash, I just saw the black/green Yarga being set up by the boat ramp.
At that point the guy was pretty close to shore, but had someone else with him and I didn't see a board so I was hoping they were just getting the lines straight before moving to a more appropriate launch position. It sounds like this got pretty ugly.
A simple sign at the Wac would be a good thing I think to help with this sort of situation. All it would need to say is kiters stay clear of other lake users and launch downwind. A caution about the suitability of the lake for beginners would also be appropriate I think.
I think it would be a LOT easier to ask someone setting up in a bad area if read they the sign. Otherwise it's hard not to sound like a busybody telling someone they need to move.
Anyway, this is the type of thing a common organization such as Fleet 8 could address I would think. I just joined for this year and hopefully things like this will get discussed.
Very good ideas.
As Tyson mentioned, the DNR Boat launch is a boat launch first and foremost. If an incident were to happen there, specially if it involved a boater, we'd be gone. We almost lost our ability to park there a few years ago and through the work of some windsurfers (sorry don't remember who) we got half the parking lot back. (It was going to be trailer parking only like the South side). Not saying they wouldn't be open to it though. I think the better we make it though the more beach goers and picknicers there may be now that they charge at the South Beach.
I think the sign idea is a good one. We could develop a foremat for the sign that captures, wind directions, skill level, water obstacles, exit points on the lake etc. Would be good to have one at each frequented launch. I'm developing a system like this for the lakes section here, but as we've seen some of these new kiters have never been here. A sign would be pretty evident. I think we also might get the support of the DNR if we include safety information for the public, just in case something happens, if there is a loose kite, don't grab the lines, if a kiter is down in that water and you want to assist, approach from the upwind side, etc.
And yes all this takes time, energy and money. This is another reason why if we had a local organization we might be able to accomplish some of these things. Someone making a list? Events, insurance, certifications, lake/launch signage, ...
As Tyson mentioned, the DNR Boat launch is a boat launch first and foremost. If an incident were to happen there, specially if it involved a boater, we'd be gone. We almost lost our ability to park there a few years ago and through the work of some windsurfers (sorry don't remember who) we got half the parking lot back. (It was going to be trailer parking only like the South side). Not saying they wouldn't be open to it though. I think the better we make it though the more beach goers and picknicers there may be now that they charge at the South Beach.
I think the sign idea is a good one. We could develop a foremat for the sign that captures, wind directions, skill level, water obstacles, exit points on the lake etc. Would be good to have one at each frequented launch. I'm developing a system like this for the lakes section here, but as we've seen some of these new kiters have never been here. A sign would be pretty evident. I think we also might get the support of the DNR if we include safety information for the public, just in case something happens, if there is a loose kite, don't grab the lines, if a kiter is down in that water and you want to assist, approach from the upwind side, etc.
And yes all this takes time, energy and money. This is another reason why if we had a local organization we might be able to accomplish some of these things. Someone making a list? Events, insurance, certifications, lake/launch signage, ...
Tighe
I didn't intend to defend the beginner status of Waconia. I meant to point out that beginners tend to be super stoked to ride any time there's wind, may not have proper equipment for the conditions and, as you said, some of them are likely ignorant dorks with no clue what they are getting into.Tighe wrote:All I can say is we all had considerable winter experience with the inflatable kites before hitting the water and just cause us few didn't die doesn't mean it was safe. We were just extremely passionate ignorate dorks. With more and more riders entering the scene the chances of an accident just go up and up.
If the DNR has to ban kites from the boat launch, the easiest way is probably to just make it all trailer only and solve all their problems at once.
I think a sign is a pretty good idea but it might be best to find out how many of the dangers kites pose to bystanders they are already aware of before throwing them the top 10 reasons they shouldn't allow kites there at all. Maybe they think of kites and kiters as more of a nuisance than a danger. (I doubt it, but maybe)
Another thing to think about for the whole wind driven crowd is to become "good to have around". Pick up trash. Not just your own either. If you are standing around offer boaters help (we're there when it is windy and challenging for them). I'm sure there are other positive things that can be done that wouldn't take much effort
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Protege Menace
- Posts: 136
- Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 6:01 am
- Location: Medicine Lake
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thenamessean04
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:11 pm
Monday at Wac I picked up an armful or trash on my way out. Haha it's still in my car but at least its not on the ground 
. What really bugs me is the beer/soda cans and other sharp things (besides the rocks 
) that are in the water. I try to grab whatever I can but I can't get everything you know?
. What really bugs me is the beer/soda cans and other sharp things (besides the rocks ) that are in the water. I try to grab whatever I can but I can't get everything you know?Sean Cunliffe
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toyletbowl
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:19 pm
- Location: madison ,wi...planet earth
someone in michigan or the chicago area talked to the coast guard about kites.
the CG mentioned that we are considered a water toy...not a watercraft... and as a water toy, everyone else has the right of way.
i know this thread is talking about a launching situation, but as kiters we're the last to join the world. so in essense, everyone else really has the right to belong before we do. we're kind of the guests of the beaches and launch areas and should act that way.
tighe,
i'm going to start a seperate thread and post it on the chicago forum also regarding meeting soon to discuss rider responsibilities, problems, concerns and future growth and goals for midwest kiteboarders.
let me know your thoughts once you read the other post.
bob
the CG mentioned that we are considered a water toy...not a watercraft... and as a water toy, everyone else has the right of way.
i know this thread is talking about a launching situation, but as kiters we're the last to join the world. so in essense, everyone else really has the right to belong before we do. we're kind of the guests of the beaches and launch areas and should act that way.
tighe,
i'm going to start a seperate thread and post it on the chicago forum also regarding meeting soon to discuss rider responsibilities, problems, concerns and future growth and goals for midwest kiteboarders.
let me know your thoughts once you read the other post.
bob
bob
kiteridersllc.com
madtown, wi. usa
planet earth.
kiteridersllc.com
madtown, wi. usa
planet earth.
my 2 cents regarding yarga dude. I don't know what the windsurfer said to him after his kite crashed into the windsurfers rig and nearly hitting him and his family....but I would have given him my version of the riot act and I'm sure my guy would of kicked some serious butt....Anything coming close to hurting the children causes the mother bear reaction in me which isn't pretty. I probably would have found another use for the sizzors in my swiss army knife. 
And I do understand having a passion for a sport and wanting to learn and do it, but when it endangers other people at the same time, it becomes everyone's business. When I was learning to windsurf, the only threat I posed was to myself.
I keep reading the posts about telling the newbies to kiting to go to Mille Lacs. Maybe something could be worked out there in regards to where the windsurfers can sail comfortably without having to worry about some newbies lines slicing you. I know it's a big lake, but if the beach area is taken up with lines it does make it challenging to sail comfortably. I usually am out there alone so I don't go on super long reaches because of the safety factor. So, I'm in and out a lot around the launch area. I'd like to teach my daughter there, but have hesitated because of the line situation. Each kite seems to need quite a bit of space. Maybe I need to find another lake. Any suggestions. I live 35 minutes south of Mille Lacs.
I pretty much stopped sailing at the Bear because of the boat traffic and stress of sailing when you are constantly looking over your shoulder trying to save yourself from getting hit. Jon was real lucky to get hit by a boat and live to tell about it or not be seriously injured at the very least.
I love to sail, but not when I have to constantly worry about what someone else is going to do which could impact me in a negitive way. Anything that takes the fun out of sailing becomes the problem. With kiting being the new sport, I'm hoping all the kinks can be worked out without causing hard feelings and tension. Again, just my 2 cents worth.
And I do understand having a passion for a sport and wanting to learn and do it, but when it endangers other people at the same time, it becomes everyone's business. When I was learning to windsurf, the only threat I posed was to myself. I keep reading the posts about telling the newbies to kiting to go to Mille Lacs. Maybe something could be worked out there in regards to where the windsurfers can sail comfortably without having to worry about some newbies lines slicing you. I know it's a big lake, but if the beach area is taken up with lines it does make it challenging to sail comfortably. I usually am out there alone so I don't go on super long reaches because of the safety factor. So, I'm in and out a lot around the launch area. I'd like to teach my daughter there, but have hesitated because of the line situation. Each kite seems to need quite a bit of space. Maybe I need to find another lake. Any suggestions. I live 35 minutes south of Mille Lacs.
I pretty much stopped sailing at the Bear because of the boat traffic and stress of sailing when you are constantly looking over your shoulder trying to save yourself from getting hit. Jon was real lucky to get hit by a boat and live to tell about it or not be seriously injured at the very least.
I love to sail, but not when I have to constantly worry about what someone else is going to do which could impact me in a negitive way. Anything that takes the fun out of sailing becomes the problem. With kiting being the new sport, I'm hoping all the kinks can be worked out without causing hard feelings and tension. Again, just my 2 cents worth.