http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopi ... 15b2df5e4a
Sounds like you need to spend the $ and get the right shackle. I'm going to the pin system. It saved Alex's butt and that's good enough for me.
Be careful of shackles
Moderator: MK
Be careful of shackles
Tighe
It sounds like the shackles that have a swivel at the tip are the best for load-bearing releasing. A lot recommendations are made toward the Wichard 2673 for this reason, and that it has less likeyhood for corrosion. (Boat US in Bloomington will special order these for $64.99). About 2 times as much as the side releasing kind, but...
I have been using the side release type and actually had a problem once where the chicken loop did stick to the end of the shackle after release. This is where a metal ring would be adventageous (less likely to stick), and the swivel tip release (like on the 2673 model) would probably remove any tendency of this happening again.
It is also a good idea to have additional release methods if shackling in. The 2003 North Scepter bar (and maybe others, too) has a pin release which will let everything go as well.
Any suggestions of other places to purchase these shackles would be appreciated.
Finally, one other thing to mention: The shackle is starting to wear through at the eye where it is attached to the spreader bar (a Monkey Bar prototype of AP's). I don't know how other people are attaching/mounting the shackles, but a quick solution is to tie/sew it to the spreader bar with webbing material to avoid the metal on metal grinding at this particular point.
T
I have been using the side release type and actually had a problem once where the chicken loop did stick to the end of the shackle after release. This is where a metal ring would be adventageous (less likely to stick), and the swivel tip release (like on the 2673 model) would probably remove any tendency of this happening again.
It is also a good idea to have additional release methods if shackling in. The 2003 North Scepter bar (and maybe others, too) has a pin release which will let everything go as well.
Any suggestions of other places to purchase these shackles would be appreciated.
Finally, one other thing to mention: The shackle is starting to wear through at the eye where it is attached to the spreader bar (a Monkey Bar prototype of AP's). I don't know how other people are attaching/mounting the shackles, but a quick solution is to tie/sew it to the spreader bar with webbing material to avoid the metal on metal grinding at this particular point.
T
more info on shackles and a pretty simple system.
http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopi ... bb4e94ed06
http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopi ... bb4e94ed06
Tighe
-
steveb
- Posts: 2146
- Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:31 pm
- Location: sblain@frontiernet.net
shackles
I've been using a shackle designed for going on the end of a yacht spinnacker sheet or guy. On the BIG boats you drop the spinnacker by pulling the pin on the shackle on the windward guy. A 500 to 1000 sq ft spinnacker puts load on these shackles that makes a kite look like kids stuff and they are designed to release under that kind of load. You can get them for $25 from Johnson boat works. Just make sure you buy one of the bigger ones.
I was foredeck on a C and C 36ft down in the Keys for a few years and don't recall popping a snap shackle to take the spinnaker down. Snap shakles on that boat were used for quick rigging/derigging before and after the sail was filled with air, not a quick release system if I recall.
If you guys must use snap shackles with your kite set-ups make sure that the armature goes through a steel ring like a grommet or somthing. It helps with the release.
I've seen so many people shakling on to a poly-prop chicken loop. Try to release it under load. You might find that the armature will hang on the plastic tube.
I think the answer is not a 'better shackle'. It might be a 'pin release' The one on the Frenzy trim loop work almost too good.
Don't be a fool, leave yourself an out.
http://www.sailnet.com/collections/Raci ... brenne0008
(I forgot how "exciting" rounding a mark can be)
If you guys must use snap shackles with your kite set-ups make sure that the armature goes through a steel ring like a grommet or somthing. It helps with the release.
I've seen so many people shakling on to a poly-prop chicken loop. Try to release it under load. You might find that the armature will hang on the plastic tube.
I think the answer is not a 'better shackle'. It might be a 'pin release' The one on the Frenzy trim loop work almost too good.
Don't be a fool, leave yourself an out.
http://www.sailnet.com/collections/Raci ... brenne0008
(I forgot how "exciting" rounding a mark can be)
You're right Eric.
What I've been getting from all the dialog around the world is that shackles are not fool proof.:
They can jam with the slightest dirt
Their tripping mechanism can be hard to find when you're draggin'
You may only be able to open them with a motion within a limited orientation to the shackle.
When used with tubing, the shackle can open but the tubing pinches the arm and prevents release. (http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=5202)
The trigger mechanism on the better tip triggered ones, can be inadvertantly triggered. Not fun if you are in the air.
If you are going to use one, spend the money to get either the Tylaska or the Wichard 2673, retrofitted with a bigger trigger.
The inline pin systems like this one are a good redundant system. I think Alex said when he had his incident on Calhoun that he couldn't find his shackle and pulled this instead. I'm putting one of these between my adjustment strap and my metal ring on my chicken loop. I'll just use my shackle for easy clip in and spinning my bar.
Most 2003 Bars have addressed these issues and have some sort of pin type system on their chicken loop.
Like Randy's, "dress for the swim in", the advice here would be, rig for the worst case scenario. If you want to get an idea of what this might be like, take a sqeeky toy, tie a line on it and tie a Raggedy Anne doll on the other side. Toss the toy into the backyard near a young yellow lab. Watch the doll. This could be you. Think you could find a small ball on a shackle?
Ride safe.
What I've been getting from all the dialog around the world is that shackles are not fool proof.:
They can jam with the slightest dirt
Their tripping mechanism can be hard to find when you're draggin'
You may only be able to open them with a motion within a limited orientation to the shackle.
When used with tubing, the shackle can open but the tubing pinches the arm and prevents release. (http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=5202)
The trigger mechanism on the better tip triggered ones, can be inadvertantly triggered. Not fun if you are in the air.
If you are going to use one, spend the money to get either the Tylaska or the Wichard 2673, retrofitted with a bigger trigger.
The inline pin systems like this one are a good redundant system. I think Alex said when he had his incident on Calhoun that he couldn't find his shackle and pulled this instead. I'm putting one of these between my adjustment strap and my metal ring on my chicken loop. I'll just use my shackle for easy clip in and spinning my bar.
Most 2003 Bars have addressed these issues and have some sort of pin type system on their chicken loop.
Like Randy's, "dress for the swim in", the advice here would be, rig for the worst case scenario. If you want to get an idea of what this might be like, take a sqeeky toy, tie a line on it and tie a Raggedy Anne doll on the other side. Toss the toy into the backyard near a young yellow lab. Watch the doll. This could be you. Think you could find a small ball on a shackle?
Ride safe.
Tighe
Tighe, the pin system you have pictured is the one I'm using, and is now on the Wipika "Apex" bar. What we need is a good source for a pin system where you don't have to buy the whole $135 bar to get it. Wipika is not exactly the easiest company to buy parts from. Anywhere you know of?
I'm in Cabarete at Kite Beach and I had a very hairy situation develope because of a malfunctioning power strap giving me way, way too much power at the wrong time. One thing you have to train your mind to do is to actually start grabbing for that pin, ball, or whatevert it may be. You have to be mentally prepared to take one hand off the bar right when your going for the ride of your life. I know in my case I was late pulling the plug because I was trying to control the situation with the bar, when it was beyond my control. So, no matter what your using as a rig, prepare your mind too. Full report when I get back.
I'm in Cabarete at Kite Beach and I had a very hairy situation develope because of a malfunctioning power strap giving me way, way too much power at the wrong time. One thing you have to train your mind to do is to actually start grabbing for that pin, ball, or whatevert it may be. You have to be mentally prepared to take one hand off the bar right when your going for the ride of your life. I know in my case I was late pulling the plug because I was trying to control the situation with the bar, when it was beyond my control. So, no matter what your using as a rig, prepare your mind too. Full report when I get back.
You can get the Ozone and the Airush chicken loop setups ( including the inline pin) by themselves. They both come with a line to go through your bar, the pin release system with a bright orange loop, and a black polypro chicken loop. I'm getting an Airush and seeing if I can replace the chicken loop with a metal ring. Larry may start carrying these if there is enough of an interest.
Can't wait to hear your stories Tom. I've heard Cabarete is great.
Can't wait to hear your stories Tom. I've heard Cabarete is great.
Tighe
Hey Tom, I know what you mean, You almost need to practice using the safety system on your kite before you need to use it in real life.
People can tell you to "grab the red ball and pull sideways" on the shore, but I'll tell you what... When you are getting dragged, there is no up or down, red or white, ball or no ball...
You need to have a system that works.
I was pissed off at the Frenzy pin-release system at first. Too many releasese. Now I can deal with that, too many release mechs. Now fixed.
The new system works really good...
Keep your Protien, Carbs and Fat in order....
Zone!
People can tell you to "grab the red ball and pull sideways" on the shore, but I'll tell you what... When you are getting dragged, there is no up or down, red or white, ball or no ball...
You need to have a system that works.
I was pissed off at the Frenzy pin-release system at first. Too many releasese. Now I can deal with that, too many release mechs. Now fixed.
The new system works really good...
Keep your Protien, Carbs and Fat in order....
Zone!
Carry a knife or two...
You know, with all this talk of shackles and releases and, and, and...
Practical experience dictates one thing - carry a friggin' knife.
We can all talk about shackles until we're blue in the face (cold water?), but no release system is going to do 100% of the job or do it 100% of the time. A knife will.
The times where I've had inadvertent or intentional kite releases the Wichard shackle I have worked fine. I think I had to yank on it a couple times to get it to go during my kitemare this past fall, it's hard to remember. But, when I did get out, it was the line wrapped around my ankle that caused the biggest problem.
Other equipment failed when I've lost the kite unintentionally. Shackles make little or no difference in those cases. In fact, the release I was using during one kite loss (not a shackles, but a metal pin system similar to the Wipika and others) actually broke. Some of those small metal parts are not even as close to as tough as you might think.
Without a shackle release at all, but a knife in a handy position, you should be able to get out of 99.99% of the scary situations the kite puts you in.
I think shackles are, in some ways, a poor effort to spare the kite, kite line, or other equipment from damage (read: $$$). Nobody seems to want to cut their lines until it's probably too late. Have a decent release system and then don't worry too much about it. Worry A LOT about where your knife is and that you can effectively use it.
Keep it simple, don't burden yourself with a whole bunch of crap on your bar like multiple release systems, and carry a knife (or two).
OK, long post - let me boil it down:
Releases are great if you are afraid the kite is ABOUT to do something scary. If it IS doing something scary, cut every line in sight.
-Coach
Practical experience dictates one thing - carry a friggin' knife.
We can all talk about shackles until we're blue in the face (cold water?), but no release system is going to do 100% of the job or do it 100% of the time. A knife will.
The times where I've had inadvertent or intentional kite releases the Wichard shackle I have worked fine. I think I had to yank on it a couple times to get it to go during my kitemare this past fall, it's hard to remember. But, when I did get out, it was the line wrapped around my ankle that caused the biggest problem.
Other equipment failed when I've lost the kite unintentionally. Shackles make little or no difference in those cases. In fact, the release I was using during one kite loss (not a shackles, but a metal pin system similar to the Wipika and others) actually broke. Some of those small metal parts are not even as close to as tough as you might think.
Without a shackle release at all, but a knife in a handy position, you should be able to get out of 99.99% of the scary situations the kite puts you in.
I think shackles are, in some ways, a poor effort to spare the kite, kite line, or other equipment from damage (read: $$$). Nobody seems to want to cut their lines until it's probably too late. Have a decent release system and then don't worry too much about it. Worry A LOT about where your knife is and that you can effectively use it.
Keep it simple, don't burden yourself with a whole bunch of crap on your bar like multiple release systems, and carry a knife (or two).
OK, long post - let me boil it down:
Releases are great if you are afraid the kite is ABOUT to do something scary. If it IS doing something scary, cut every line in sight.
-Coach
Last edited by Coach on Mon Mar 31, 2003 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
