Ok I know I may be opening up a can of worms here but I was talking to someone about snowkiting last night and the usual topic of type of kites came up. In the past it was easier to differenciate foils from LEIs for winter. If someone only wanted to ride in the winter and had no desire to ride the water, then foils made a lot of sense...easier to set up, easier to put down, easier to relaunch, etc. But then I found myself backtracking because with the new LEIs most of these issues have gone away. One Pump and Octopus type kites allow for inflation with gloves on. There is no bridle to catch on the ice/crud, most new LEIs have some sort of relaunch system, the fifth line systems to the LE make killiing the power much more like the foils, and in most cases less violent (let go of bar, kite floats down, pull in bar, kite launches),etc, etc. And the LEIs don't fill with snow in a snow storm. People have commented about the durability of LEIs vs Foils on snow. I have never seen an LEI blow out a LE due to use on snow. Vojta's Naish is close to 6 years old, he ties his bar to his bumper when he takes a break and the kite just swings back and forth on the snow/ice....never a blowout. Sure the LE doesn't look pretty, but quite frankly I'd rather have that LE material on the ice than the light material they have on Foils.
I am not slamming foils...really I'm not. I just get asked quite often to differenciate between foils and LEIs and it is becoming harder. (other than the year-round vs land/snow only decision).
I think what it might come down to is a preference for the feel of how they fly. I think it's great there are so many options. We have the bow kites with their unique feel, we have foils, we have grunty moderate aspect c kites and we have slippery high AR kites, all with unique feels in the air. Unfortunately it makes helping people decide which kite to buy much more difficult. It just points to the value of trying before buying. They're all good, just find one that feels good for the way you like to ride.
again, this may be opening a can of worms. opinions?
BTW...I checked out the new Turbo Diesel last night. Didn't fly it just pumped it up and checked out the bar. The kite seemed very much like other bows. Not enough experience to tell differences. The biggest differerence I noticed from other bows was the bar. The bar was super simple and everything was very straightforward. The adjustment cleat is down below the bar and your leash attached to the end of the adjustment line. Letting go of the bar essentially just pulls in on the adjustment strap all the way, completely depowering the kite. There are two lines running through the bar. Above the bar there is a simple ball that floats between these two lines, you can literally throw the ball up and down on the lines, then when you push the bar up against it it wedges into the hole in the bar and locks the bar in, eliminating all bar pressure (sorta like a fixed harness line) and the adjustment line depower still works! Super slick. If you want the 100% depower on the fly, you just push the ball all the way up, and have the full throw of your bar. The chicken loop is like the rest of the SS bars; Adjustable loop size, removable and positionable donkey dick, built in QR, etc. etc.
Very interested to fly one of these and start getting a feel for their fly characteristics. I hope to have one of each Slingshot's kites available for for demos this winter.
ride on
Can of worms?
Moderator: MK
I think Don Montague hit the nail on the head in the online video when he said that for all the advantages of foils, they just don't deliver the "pop" of LEI's for jumps. The decision about which way to go on snow is complicated because it involves so many variables, but for sheer jumping power, the LEI's dominate.
Tighe, here is pretty good review of the TD & the Xbow side by side.
http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2322051
As for the the Can of Worms. As the new bow kites get cheaper (Best will have one sooner or later), and their huge range it may be more feasible to own both. 2 LEI's for water and 2 Foils for snow. You sure can't beat a foil for cold, blustery days, the set up and take down is just so much easier. One point to consider is that many people become accustomed to setting up on the lee side of kite island, which makes things much easier. You do not always have that luxery when you kite elsewhere. If I had a choice, and I had to set up in full wind, with no shelter I think a foil is easier. But ......everyone seems to adjust to their own system and when you switch to other it seems like a royal hassle. Most LEI users will be turned off the first time they tangle a foil. But, last year I got my 19.5 Contra out on the snow, and the set up drove me nuts! (even with an electric pump).
Now.....after saying all that I like my Xbow so much I probably will have to try it on the snow. My daughter is graduating from her SS B4 this year and I think I'll get her a Switchblade 7m for snowkiting. The depower on the bows should be a major selling point for winter snowkiting. People who know how to ski or snowbaord should be able to progress very fast with a bow kite, on the first day.
So who knows ......it may all come down to personal preference. But I guess if I had to recommend just one kite for a beginner it would be like a 10m to 14m Bow depending on weght, after they have learned kite handling on a trainer. You could get a lot of use out of that one kite summer and winter. When used Bows start hitting the market, that's what I would recommend.
http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2322051
As for the the Can of Worms. As the new bow kites get cheaper (Best will have one sooner or later), and their huge range it may be more feasible to own both. 2 LEI's for water and 2 Foils for snow. You sure can't beat a foil for cold, blustery days, the set up and take down is just so much easier. One point to consider is that many people become accustomed to setting up on the lee side of kite island, which makes things much easier. You do not always have that luxery when you kite elsewhere. If I had a choice, and I had to set up in full wind, with no shelter I think a foil is easier. But ......everyone seems to adjust to their own system and when you switch to other it seems like a royal hassle. Most LEI users will be turned off the first time they tangle a foil. But, last year I got my 19.5 Contra out on the snow, and the set up drove me nuts! (even with an electric pump).
Now.....after saying all that I like my Xbow so much I probably will have to try it on the snow. My daughter is graduating from her SS B4 this year and I think I'll get her a Switchblade 7m for snowkiting. The depower on the bows should be a major selling point for winter snowkiting. People who know how to ski or snowbaord should be able to progress very fast with a bow kite, on the first day.
So who knows ......it may all come down to personal preference. But I guess if I had to recommend just one kite for a beginner it would be like a 10m to 14m Bow depending on weght, after they have learned kite handling on a trainer. You could get a lot of use out of that one kite summer and winter. When used Bows start hitting the market, that's what I would recommend.
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steveb
- Posts: 2146
- Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:31 pm
- Location: sblain@frontiernet.net
The big thing for me is parking the kite with the brake. A foil lets you take a breather without the LEI hassle if there is no where to hide.
Safety a foil will depower without flagging ( ignore the bows for this comment)so no tangles.
People make a fuss about the bridles but if you leave it alone there is really no issues.
Rigging ease, it take 2 minutes to get the foil ready or put away. Nice when it's cold.
When the foil is down it's off, no wear, no swinging from side to side across the snow.
If you buy a good 4 line foil I don't experience any performance difference, maybe I'm not good enough to notice but I don't think my Frenzys have any less pop or performance than my LEI's. Without doubt more air than I really want in winter.
I don't think I get quite the same glide as my xbows but definatley more than my old C kites.
The foils fly earlier than Lei's so they are better if the wind is light, they also relaunch easier and will fly backwards off the snow a long time before a LEI will launch. It means I don't have to do they upwind speed skate I often see LEI flyers use to get the kite in the air in light winds.
Truth both do well, it's taste. For me I like not having to pump, I'm lazy.
I also like the way the foils look in the air, to me they just look right, silly comment but one thats relevant to me.
Safety a foil will depower without flagging ( ignore the bows for this comment)so no tangles.
People make a fuss about the bridles but if you leave it alone there is really no issues.
Rigging ease, it take 2 minutes to get the foil ready or put away. Nice when it's cold.
When the foil is down it's off, no wear, no swinging from side to side across the snow.
If you buy a good 4 line foil I don't experience any performance difference, maybe I'm not good enough to notice but I don't think my Frenzys have any less pop or performance than my LEI's. Without doubt more air than I really want in winter.
I don't think I get quite the same glide as my xbows but definatley more than my old C kites.
The foils fly earlier than Lei's so they are better if the wind is light, they also relaunch easier and will fly backwards off the snow a long time before a LEI will launch. It means I don't have to do they upwind speed skate I often see LEI flyers use to get the kite in the air in light winds.
Truth both do well, it's taste. For me I like not having to pump, I'm lazy.
I also like the way the foils look in the air, to me they just look right, silly comment but one thats relevant to me.
I agree with most of these comments when talking about older c kites but the new 5th line systems and one pumps completely take these away. You can't tell me it is easier to lay out a bridled foil in the wind and try to put snow on the trailing edge while keeping your bridle all arranged, than flinging your kite downwind, hooking into your pumpleash, pumping up your kite, throw a wt or snow over the LE, wingtips up and undo your lines...assuming you left them on the kite. I think these set ups are about the same hassle factor. I have had a field day trying to just layout a foil prior to walking back with the lines.
As far as depowering or putting down the kite, the new fifth line systems work like a breeze. You come in unhook from the bar, let go of bar (so far not unlike foils) the kite falls from the sky and sits lightly on the snow wingtips up. Stake down your 5th line and take a break. No swinging back and forth, not trashing of the kite. If anything the kite may hover off of the surface. When you're ready to go, pull in the bar and relaunch. You may want to throw some snow on the canopy to hold it down if it is hovering. Seems pretty simple to me, and much better than the "flagging" in the past.
I'm not sold on the bows for teaching. There is a lot of discussion about this. When learning to kite you need to develop the skill to resist the kites power to move it to the side of the window to have it pull you across the wind instead of downwind. If you can depower a kite that is downwind in the power zone, the kite never moves forward and pulls you across the wind. Experienced kiters have this skill and can regulate power on, power off, set an edge and power up more. I am also not sure it is good to teach on a kite that is so unique that it makes flying others unsafe. Maybe the students would never ride anything but bows.
I am picking up a few bows for lessons this winter. We'll see how successful they are for lessons and on the snow.
Again I think it all comes down to preferences. There are lots of options.
options are good.
As far as depowering or putting down the kite, the new fifth line systems work like a breeze. You come in unhook from the bar, let go of bar (so far not unlike foils) the kite falls from the sky and sits lightly on the snow wingtips up. Stake down your 5th line and take a break. No swinging back and forth, not trashing of the kite. If anything the kite may hover off of the surface. When you're ready to go, pull in the bar and relaunch. You may want to throw some snow on the canopy to hold it down if it is hovering. Seems pretty simple to me, and much better than the "flagging" in the past.
I'm not sold on the bows for teaching. There is a lot of discussion about this. When learning to kite you need to develop the skill to resist the kites power to move it to the side of the window to have it pull you across the wind instead of downwind. If you can depower a kite that is downwind in the power zone, the kite never moves forward and pulls you across the wind. Experienced kiters have this skill and can regulate power on, power off, set an edge and power up more. I am also not sure it is good to teach on a kite that is so unique that it makes flying others unsafe. Maybe the students would never ride anything but bows.
I am picking up a few bows for lessons this winter. We'll see how successful they are for lessons and on the snow.
Again I think it all comes down to preferences. There are lots of options.
options are good.
Tighe
Come on........... Tighe you really aren't being fair to foils. Your description of a foil launch needs some updating. If I used your system I'd have a tangled mess in 5 seconds. Although a ball of foil bridle lines may look like spaghetti to the uninformed, they almost never tangle when pulled out correctly.Tighe wrote:You can't tell me it is easier to lay out a bridled foil in the wind and try to put snow on the trailing edge while keeping your bridle all arranged, than flinging your kite downwind.
Here is my system:
First.....I always have 2 ice srews in my kit, one short one, carried with me while I kite, and one to leave in the ice where you launch from.
1. Leave your kite tightly rolled up or in the bag, on the snow. Lines already attached.
2. Walk staight up wind 25m, while unwinding lines. Put in ice screw, attach safety to ice screw.
3. Walk back to kite, pull lines taught, pull kite out of bag, and spreadout. Kite is ready to go in about 5 secs, sitting on safety.
4. Walk back to bar, plant your bag under some snow, hook in, LET's RIDE!
What could be easier than that!!
When in deep snow (off the ice) I use my skis dug into snow at a severe angle as a substitute for the ice screw, can be done with a board also. Certain low snow conditions would prohibit this technique, then I use trailer hitch, bumper, ATV, whatever.
Bow kites can use this same system, except kite is 45° to the wind.
BTW...Jason claims his kids improved like crazy the day they got on the Xbow.
When you depower a Bow in the middle of the window it still migrates to the edge of the window. Tighe, you need more experience then 20 minutes in Michigan in the sand before you can make these claims about bow kites. Look what the people coming back from SPI said. Sounds like they had a ball, learning on Bow kites.
My point isn't that foils are difficult. My point is that the disadvantages of LEI's in the winter have become nearly non-existent. I have always said that foils have significant advantages over LEIs in the winter. Not enough to get me to ride them, but for individuals who can afford two quivers or who only ride in the winter, they are a good choice. My point was just that with the new LEIs there appears to be less of an advantage.
I have not had any significant experience with the bow kites. Everything I hear is pretty positive. I have also heard that they are a different bird. At this point it's best for me to shut up, until I ride them. The fact that some people who I know have been working on riding for awhile, have gotten up and got to experience the thrill of the ride, definitely says something positive about them.
it's all good.
I have not had any significant experience with the bow kites. Everything I hear is pretty positive. I have also heard that they are a different bird. At this point it's best for me to shut up, until I ride them. The fact that some people who I know have been working on riding for awhile, have gotten up and got to experience the thrill of the ride, definitely says something positive about them.
it's all good.
Tighe
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steveb
- Posts: 2146
- Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:31 pm
- Location: sblain@frontiernet.net
Tom thanks for the update on rigging a foil, saved me typing it. Tighes description is for a 2 line slingshot b series not exactly the same kind of beast as a 3 or 4 line foil with a brake. But good kites all the same.
Unless your 5th line is attached to the trailing edge of the kite you will not find it particularly useful for launching an LEI. They won't walk to a launching position on snow, I tried it.
Dianne and Judd bought a 16 m xbow after Philip Money said it's the best kite he has ever ridden, Dianne used it for learning, Nancy used the Xbow 12 and 16 to learn,Dean used the 16. There were other people in SPI not from this area using the Xbow to learn. The relaunch and safety of bows makes learning really simple,getting the kite back in the air is no longer a production, the fact they won't hindenberg makes it simpler, not having to fight to keep your edge inspires confidence. Tighes comment about learning how to get the kite to the edge of the window just shows you hav e not ridden a bow Tighe. To get a bow to go to the edge of the window you just push the bar out a couple of inches, the kite has less tension on the trailing edge ( just like sheeting your center lines on a C) and shoots to the edge of the window. The need for forceful edging is gone, it's history. No more fighting. Set your edge for the direction you want to travel and play the bar for the power you want. Because you don't get dragged downwind by the kite sitting back in the window it makes it really easy for beginners.
Dianne and Nancy were staying up wind after about 7 hours of riding. Nancys last session was on a 16m in 14 to 15 knots, I'm not talking about staying upwind for one run, she was out for an hour and a half and returned upwind of where she left the beach!.
People may not like bows for various reasons but everyone needs to ride one, not fly it on the beach, which tells you nothing about these kites.
I see various posters on sites saying the xbow is a kite for advanced riders and unstable. I've never read such B.S. Bows are the most forgiving,easy, well behaved, safe kites on the market today. I don't care what the hype says, ride one make up your own mind.
I quote a conversation with John Doyle at Jessies one night, John said he did not particularly like the bows but... and I quote. I was out on the octane in the gorge and jumping 35 ft, there was a guy on a xbow jumping 60ft and he was laughing at me!.
Unless your 5th line is attached to the trailing edge of the kite you will not find it particularly useful for launching an LEI. They won't walk to a launching position on snow, I tried it.
Dianne and Judd bought a 16 m xbow after Philip Money said it's the best kite he has ever ridden, Dianne used it for learning, Nancy used the Xbow 12 and 16 to learn,Dean used the 16. There were other people in SPI not from this area using the Xbow to learn. The relaunch and safety of bows makes learning really simple,getting the kite back in the air is no longer a production, the fact they won't hindenberg makes it simpler, not having to fight to keep your edge inspires confidence. Tighes comment about learning how to get the kite to the edge of the window just shows you hav e not ridden a bow Tighe. To get a bow to go to the edge of the window you just push the bar out a couple of inches, the kite has less tension on the trailing edge ( just like sheeting your center lines on a C) and shoots to the edge of the window. The need for forceful edging is gone, it's history. No more fighting. Set your edge for the direction you want to travel and play the bar for the power you want. Because you don't get dragged downwind by the kite sitting back in the window it makes it really easy for beginners.
Dianne and Nancy were staying up wind after about 7 hours of riding. Nancys last session was on a 16m in 14 to 15 knots, I'm not talking about staying upwind for one run, she was out for an hour and a half and returned upwind of where she left the beach!.
People may not like bows for various reasons but everyone needs to ride one, not fly it on the beach, which tells you nothing about these kites.
I see various posters on sites saying the xbow is a kite for advanced riders and unstable. I've never read such B.S. Bows are the most forgiving,easy, well behaved, safe kites on the market today. I don't care what the hype says, ride one make up your own mind.
I quote a conversation with John Doyle at Jessies one night, John said he did not particularly like the bows but... and I quote. I was out on the octane in the gorge and jumping 35 ft, there was a guy on a xbow jumping 60ft and he was laughing at me!.
wow, I must be completely incapabable of stringing text together. Somehow you guys think I'm slamming bows and was referring to B Series foils. Neither of which was the case. If any slamming is going on it seems to come from you bow riders toward C kite riders.
I will state my point as simply as I can and I truly hope I can string words together to communicate clearly.
THERE ARE LOTS OF NEW DEVELOPEMENTS IN KITES THAT ARE MAKING IT HARDER TO CLEARLY RECOMMEND A PARTICULAR KITE FOR A PARTICULAR RIDER. LOTS OF KITES, EACH WITH A DIFFERENT FEEL AND DIFFERENT TYPES OF PERFORMANCE. NONE BETTER NONE WORSE. THAT'S ALL.
If you guys have the opinion that bow kites are the "best" for beginners, great. If you guys have the opinion that they are the best kites ever, great. Sounds like they do what you want them to do well. That's all that matters.
I gotta read over my posts before submitting them. Somehow they must be coming across negative. Sorry for that. You guys gotta know I love anything to do with kiting.
I guess my original title is accurate..."can o worms" though I had no idea this is the direction it would go.
Next time give me the benefit of doubt guys. I think we're all being a bit over sensitive. We're talking about some cloth and some lines here guys.
Let's go ride, share kites, have fun, learn, build stoke and find the kid within.
I will state my point as simply as I can and I truly hope I can string words together to communicate clearly.
THERE ARE LOTS OF NEW DEVELOPEMENTS IN KITES THAT ARE MAKING IT HARDER TO CLEARLY RECOMMEND A PARTICULAR KITE FOR A PARTICULAR RIDER. LOTS OF KITES, EACH WITH A DIFFERENT FEEL AND DIFFERENT TYPES OF PERFORMANCE. NONE BETTER NONE WORSE. THAT'S ALL.
If you guys have the opinion that bow kites are the "best" for beginners, great. If you guys have the opinion that they are the best kites ever, great. Sounds like they do what you want them to do well. That's all that matters.
I gotta read over my posts before submitting them. Somehow they must be coming across negative. Sorry for that. You guys gotta know I love anything to do with kiting.
I guess my original title is accurate..."can o worms" though I had no idea this is the direction it would go.
Next time give me the benefit of doubt guys. I think we're all being a bit over sensitive. We're talking about some cloth and some lines here guys.
Let's go ride, share kites, have fun, learn, build stoke and find the kid within.
Tighe
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Hunter Welles
- Posts: 336
- Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 9:06 pm
- Location: Wayzata
You guys sure know how to beat a topic to death... Might as well poor some fuel on the fire. 
It's pretty clear, after watching people *ride* both foils and C-kites on the snow (and water) and doing quite a bit of it myself, there are more disadvantages to riding a foil on the snow. But, the performance differences are minor. For the price of most foils, why not? That's not a huge difference, either. To each their own.
As for the *setup*, I think Tighe's point is completely true - the setup advantages have been almost completely negated.
Bow kites have the advantage of depower, contributing to the snow setup value and many other things. Anyone saying "I was out on the octane in the gorge and jumping 35 ft, there was a guy on a xbow jumping 60ft and he was laughing at me!" is blowing smoke - doesn't matter who it is. Just about the only redeeming quality of a bow kite is the depower, but it clearly makes up for a lot.
Everyone used to think foils were WAY better for getting big air - on the water! That went out the window about 5 years ago. How long do you think the hype around bows getting 'bigger, better' air is going to last?
Steve mentioned "The need for forceful edging is gone, it's history. No more fighting." There's a point in your kiting where it's not so much fighting and you use that edging to your advantage quite often. Sure, it would be nice to have a that extra depower range every once in a blue moon, but I can easily live without it - I much prefer an 'always on' feeling. I'd rather not be futzing with the bar all the time.
Bows have their advantages. Foils are cool for some things. C-kites are great for lots of things, too. No type of kite has more than a few percentage points advantage than another in any particular area. All of them can be made relatively safe.
Jeez - this isn't boat racing where the fastest kite wins. With such small differences, and free stylin' to boot, who gives a crap? It's the rider.
-Coach
It's pretty clear, after watching people *ride* both foils and C-kites on the snow (and water) and doing quite a bit of it myself, there are more disadvantages to riding a foil on the snow. But, the performance differences are minor. For the price of most foils, why not? That's not a huge difference, either. To each their own.
As for the *setup*, I think Tighe's point is completely true - the setup advantages have been almost completely negated.
Bow kites have the advantage of depower, contributing to the snow setup value and many other things. Anyone saying "I was out on the octane in the gorge and jumping 35 ft, there was a guy on a xbow jumping 60ft and he was laughing at me!" is blowing smoke - doesn't matter who it is. Just about the only redeeming quality of a bow kite is the depower, but it clearly makes up for a lot.
Everyone used to think foils were WAY better for getting big air - on the water! That went out the window about 5 years ago. How long do you think the hype around bows getting 'bigger, better' air is going to last?
Steve mentioned "The need for forceful edging is gone, it's history. No more fighting." There's a point in your kiting where it's not so much fighting and you use that edging to your advantage quite often. Sure, it would be nice to have a that extra depower range every once in a blue moon, but I can easily live without it - I much prefer an 'always on' feeling. I'd rather not be futzing with the bar all the time.
Bows have their advantages. Foils are cool for some things. C-kites are great for lots of things, too. No type of kite has more than a few percentage points advantage than another in any particular area. All of them can be made relatively safe.
Jeez - this isn't boat racing where the fastest kite wins. With such small differences, and free stylin' to boot, who gives a crap? It's the rider.
-Coach
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steveb
- Posts: 2146
- Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:31 pm
- Location: sblain@frontiernet.net
Mark...the guy who said he was on the octane being laughed at was John Doyle...the board designer for slingshot. The guy who designed the bar system for the Slingshot turbo deisel.
A slingshot guy saying he was being out jumped by a guy on a cabrinha. Maybe the heights were exagerated a little but think about it. Just the fact he said it gives credence.
Footnote I think it also shows what a cool no BS guy John is.
As far as being cool and beating things to death, I read some points in Tighes post that I disagreed with, I thought the point of a forum is discussion. I don't think anything is being beaten to death here. Those of you who know me know I don't really get worked up about much, unless it's fun.
Interesting statistic I was given in SPI, since april of total kite sales in the U.S the xbow is 42% of total sales.Quite a start for bow technology
A slingshot guy saying he was being out jumped by a guy on a cabrinha. Maybe the heights were exagerated a little but think about it. Just the fact he said it gives credence.
Footnote I think it also shows what a cool no BS guy John is.
As far as being cool and beating things to death, I read some points in Tighes post that I disagreed with, I thought the point of a forum is discussion. I don't think anything is being beaten to death here. Those of you who know me know I don't really get worked up about much, unless it's fun.
Interesting statistic I was given in SPI, since april of total kite sales in the U.S the xbow is 42% of total sales.Quite a start for bow technology
please Steve disagree with me. I have no problem with that. You know I love a friendly debate as well as the next guy. Let's try to keep it at that. Some of your statements were starting to feel a bit personal.
John is a great guy. Spent many a session and feast with him in Padre. Surprised he said it, but could be true.
As far as the report of 42% total sales, I'll let you decide if you want to hang your hat on that one. I'd question who you heard that from or who they heard that from, or how they derived that number. Remember most dealers buy preseason, well before April, so if the number is a reflection of dealer purchases, any kite that comes out late in the year will dominate the sales the rest of the year. Real for example buys hundreds of kites all preseason, then doesn't need to buy any the rest of the year. I highly doubt you could collect figures for individual consumer sales from every dealer which is what would be needed for this figure to have any weight. As far as I know the Cabrinha kites were one of only a few kites to come out midyear. All the other sales would have been special order. I'm not saying it's incorrect...from my perspective it seems a bit like hype.
What amazes me is the evangelistic following of these kites. I'd swear you all were trying to get employed in sales for these companies. It goes so far beyond you just saying "this is great kite, I really like it" You all seem on a mission to convince the world of this new holy grail. So. either this kite rocks your world like no other or you have completely lost your minds...or both (joking of course). As I said at the end of my post on the Turbo...I look forward to flying one. Who knows I may be found at Kite Island this winter up on a soup box preaching the Tao of Bow.
John is a great guy. Spent many a session and feast with him in Padre. Surprised he said it, but could be true.
As far as the report of 42% total sales, I'll let you decide if you want to hang your hat on that one. I'd question who you heard that from or who they heard that from, or how they derived that number. Remember most dealers buy preseason, well before April, so if the number is a reflection of dealer purchases, any kite that comes out late in the year will dominate the sales the rest of the year. Real for example buys hundreds of kites all preseason, then doesn't need to buy any the rest of the year. I highly doubt you could collect figures for individual consumer sales from every dealer which is what would be needed for this figure to have any weight. As far as I know the Cabrinha kites were one of only a few kites to come out midyear. All the other sales would have been special order. I'm not saying it's incorrect...from my perspective it seems a bit like hype.
What amazes me is the evangelistic following of these kites. I'd swear you all were trying to get employed in sales for these companies. It goes so far beyond you just saying "this is great kite, I really like it" You all seem on a mission to convince the world of this new holy grail. So. either this kite rocks your world like no other or you have completely lost your minds...or both (joking of course). As I said at the end of my post on the Turbo...I look forward to flying one. Who knows I may be found at Kite Island this winter up on a soup box preaching the Tao of Bow.
Tighe
Steve - you know I've never, ever, been able to deal with you disagreeing with me... 
ahhahahahaha! Yeah, right!
I know who Doyle is. I just believe there is a strong tendency in people to point to the one obvious difference when there are so many other factors. Even if the guy on the bow *was* 60ft. in the air, you can't attribute all of that to the kite. But, everyone (myself, Doyle, you included) still have a natural tendency to say, "ah ha, gotta' be the kite." (Otherwise know as "Gotta'-be-the-shoes-itis")
I feel pretty certain that the fever will wear down soon - bows will be a solid choice, C-kites aren't going anywhere, and there will be a small but decent percentage of foils in the winter. The laws of the universe won't let bow kites be that dramatic of a performance improvement (if any) over other kites.
Bow kites having a significant safety and friendliness improvement? You bet!
-Coach
ahhahahahaha! Yeah, right!I know who Doyle is. I just believe there is a strong tendency in people to point to the one obvious difference when there are so many other factors. Even if the guy on the bow *was* 60ft. in the air, you can't attribute all of that to the kite. But, everyone (myself, Doyle, you included) still have a natural tendency to say, "ah ha, gotta' be the kite." (Otherwise know as "Gotta'-be-the-shoes-itis")
I feel pretty certain that the fever will wear down soon - bows will be a solid choice, C-kites aren't going anywhere, and there will be a small but decent percentage of foils in the winter. The laws of the universe won't let bow kites be that dramatic of a performance improvement (if any) over other kites.
Bow kites having a significant safety and friendliness improvement? You bet!
-Coach
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steveb
- Posts: 2146
- Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:31 pm
- Location: sblain@frontiernet.net
I'm not disagreeing with you, you're disagreeing with me!.Behave dammit.
Side bet...3 years from now no more than one C design per brand, some brands will have no C's.
It's an STI to a eurovan, both get you there, both got wheels, one just gets you there faster and makes your passengers go cross eyed!.
Side bet...3 years from now no more than one C design per brand, some brands will have no C's.
It's an STI to a eurovan, both get you there, both got wheels, one just gets you there faster and makes your passengers go cross eyed!.
Steve I know you were referring to Coach's vehicles, but does that mean I'm driving a bow? Actually my van has considerable miles and I've been looking at other choices, like a sweet little A3 turbo, but most likely will go the safe, practical, extremely functional route of another used Eurovan...er ah with an automatic. Cars are a good comparison. Lots of different ones out there.
Tighe
HMMM... interesting subject! It is no can of worms, just an age old silly topic, so here's my two cents as the devils advocate.
LEi's will always have one major negative factor for snowkiting, the pump you have to carry around and the time wasted pumping. These are needless features for any snowkite. Since snowkites don't need to float, why add expensive and delicate bladders. When I ride, the wind often dies, I roll my kite up and am touring instantly. When the wind kicks back on, I roll the kite out and when I pull the lines tight I'm flying. Maybe I'm just lazy, but I love instant self gratification, I can't be bothered to connect lines and pump up a kite every time I get the inclination to ride, I just want to go ride as quickly and easily as possible.
Besides instant launching and ease of use on snow, foils (high end ones like Ozones) are built with the strongest materials available. I have foils that are over 6 years old and they are still in great shape and fly sweet, not a single one of my LEis from 2000-2003 are still around, they all disintegrated and blew out over time. Ozone has perfected bridle technology and due to their paragliding R&D, we have minimalized the bridles and created one of the cleanest layouts of any foil.
If you don't think foils can jump, you are not flying a Frenzy! Chasta has chosen what he feels is best, and proven as world freestyle Champion that foils are the best kites for big flights. I jump on my Frenzy everyday I am on the snow, and the developements with the new 06 Frenzy have improved the kites performance in all areas.
For kayaking I have 3 boats, a surf yak for waves, a long touring boat for open water cruising, and a short squirly boat for rivers and rapids.
Biking is the same, I use a mountain bike and ride trails, while many friends own road bikes and ride paved roads. Each bike is specific for its terrain and environment, and everyone chooses whats right for them.
The world of kiting is currently still very small compared to other sports, and eventually as it grows the equipment will continually develope to be more specific for each type of rider.
Oh great, now I opened the can of worms.
See you on the snow!
Windzup
Brian Schenck
LEi's will always have one major negative factor for snowkiting, the pump you have to carry around and the time wasted pumping. These are needless features for any snowkite. Since snowkites don't need to float, why add expensive and delicate bladders. When I ride, the wind often dies, I roll my kite up and am touring instantly. When the wind kicks back on, I roll the kite out and when I pull the lines tight I'm flying. Maybe I'm just lazy, but I love instant self gratification, I can't be bothered to connect lines and pump up a kite every time I get the inclination to ride, I just want to go ride as quickly and easily as possible.
Besides instant launching and ease of use on snow, foils (high end ones like Ozones) are built with the strongest materials available. I have foils that are over 6 years old and they are still in great shape and fly sweet, not a single one of my LEis from 2000-2003 are still around, they all disintegrated and blew out over time. Ozone has perfected bridle technology and due to their paragliding R&D, we have minimalized the bridles and created one of the cleanest layouts of any foil.
If you don't think foils can jump, you are not flying a Frenzy! Chasta has chosen what he feels is best, and proven as world freestyle Champion that foils are the best kites for big flights. I jump on my Frenzy everyday I am on the snow, and the developements with the new 06 Frenzy have improved the kites performance in all areas.
For kayaking I have 3 boats, a surf yak for waves, a long touring boat for open water cruising, and a short squirly boat for rivers and rapids.
Biking is the same, I use a mountain bike and ride trails, while many friends own road bikes and ride paved roads. Each bike is specific for its terrain and environment, and everyone chooses whats right for them.
The world of kiting is currently still very small compared to other sports, and eventually as it grows the equipment will continually develope to be more specific for each type of rider.
Oh great, now I opened the can of worms.
See you on the snow!Windzup
Brian Schenck
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steveb
- Posts: 2146
- Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:31 pm
- Location: sblain@frontiernet.net
Tighe..happy hunting for the new vehicle, I hope your wallet lives to fight another day.
I think a man who drives a Eurovan shows he is content with himself, he prefers function over form, he does not require the penile extention of a souped up chick magnate.
Thats why people such as Coach and yourself drive such functional vehicles. Wait a minute Coach sold the Van, well lets leave him for another "can of worms" discussion.
Truthfully in a boardhead community the eurovan has the same aphrodisiac quality of a Lamborgini to lesser mortals than boardheads.The Eurovan was only recently usurped by the Sprinter for the ultimate in boardhead status symbols.
I guess as in kites, it's all taste and beauty is in the eye of the beholder!.
Anyone want to buy a 1987 GMC conversion van so I can buy Tighes van?.
Only $12,500, it's not the miles or the condition of the van thats the value, it's the memories!.( excludes Hula dashboard dancer )
I think a man who drives a Eurovan shows he is content with himself, he prefers function over form, he does not require the penile extention of a souped up chick magnate.
Thats why people such as Coach and yourself drive such functional vehicles. Wait a minute Coach sold the Van, well lets leave him for another "can of worms" discussion.
Truthfully in a boardhead community the eurovan has the same aphrodisiac quality of a Lamborgini to lesser mortals than boardheads.The Eurovan was only recently usurped by the Sprinter for the ultimate in boardhead status symbols.
I guess as in kites, it's all taste and beauty is in the eye of the beholder!.
Anyone want to buy a 1987 GMC conversion van so I can buy Tighes van?.
Only $12,500, it's not the miles or the condition of the van thats the value, it's the memories!.( excludes Hula dashboard dancer )