Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

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Chummers
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:54 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by Chummers »

Does anyone know if the park board has a policy regarding the weeds on Calhoun? The weed-eating boat is not even out on the water yet. Can somebody call the park board and find out? I would do it but they hate me.
Chummers
Posts: 192
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Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by Chummers »

I called and spoke to the guy in charge of water quality. He must be bored at work because he seemed to want to tell me everything there is to know about the milfoil in the lakes this year. Interestingly, he said that when they use the harvester, they cut the top 4 feet of the milfoil (4 feet below the surface) and he said that actaully causes it to spread because every little strand that isn't captured has the capability of becoming its own new plant.

ANYWAY, he said the harvester would be on Calhoun on Monday and the priority areas are those around the sailboats and beaches.

He said the milfoil is so bad this year because there has been so little rain this year. Lack of rain means less runoff into the lakes which means higher water clarity, which means more sunlight gets to the milfoil to allow it to grow. Interesting. But I hate milfoil even more than I hate thos a-holes driving around the lake with their hip hop music blaring so loud. OK, I'm done complaining.
dhopkins
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Re: Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by dhopkins »

I emailed B Fine of the park board and he gave me a complete bs anwser about fish habitat and lack of budget, meybe they could defer the bs capital project into cleaning up the lake?
Tom L
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Re: Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by Tom L »

Minnesota is really out of touch on Milfoil treatment. Other states have programs that could eliminate milfoil on Calhoun (and not harm wildlife or other plant life) in a couple of weeks. We have a pilot program running on Tonka. Grays Bay & Phelps bay are milfoil free after 2 years. The treatment protocol has been fine tuned, and it works. Calhoun, since it is basically self contained could be treated very easily. I used to windsurf Calhoun all the time (pre-milfoil) and now if I happen to drive by, I can't believe how bad it has gotten. The public should be outraged. The harvestors do nothing but spread the milfoil more completely.
Chummers
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Re: Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by Chummers »

Tom L,

I am really encouraged by your post. Would you be willing to call the Park Board Manager of Water Quality at 612-313-7791? I forget his name but he is a friendly guy and gives the impression that he knows what he's talking about (even if he doesn't have a clue).

I wonder if you could call him and discuss the effective solutions that have been implemented on other lakes like Minnetonka.
Tom L
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Re: Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by Tom L »

I've got my hands full tackling Milfoil on Tonka. Dick Osgood is the expert on Milfoil. He is the executive director of the Lake Minnetonka Association. The experts know how to get rid of milfoil very easily. The problem is BS, politics, etc. Dick Osgood's Blog at: http://lmassociation.blogspot.com has some great info about fighting invasive species, of which milfoil is actually going to be the least of our worries, Zebra Mussels & Hydrilla will be far worse. Call the Park Board & have them talk to Dick Osgood. Calhoun could probably be treated for milfoil for about $100,000 the first year, the costs go way down after the 2nd year when you move into a maintenance phase. A small lake like Calhoun could be 90% milfoil free in 2 years.

The treatment does not harm fish, other plant life, wildlife or humans. I doubt that it is possible to convince the powers that be that all this is fact. Putting chemicals into a lake doesn't go over to well with the political class.

Also check http://www.lmassociation.org/index.htm

Good Luck!

PS I think Tom Latcham lives on Phelps Bay on Tonka which had a very successful milfoil treatment this season. They are on their second year of treatment. He's on Lakawa too.
wyatt
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Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by wyatt »

Unfortunately, the answers aren't as easy as they might seem when it comes to milfoil. Endothall is a common treatment for aquatic plants that's typically mixed with 2,4 D (half of the makeup of the chemical mixture agent orange). The cumulative effects of this chemical on the lake and ecosystem are essentially unknown (regardless of what "the experts" might say) and the effects on people are inconclusive at best. The DNR does not condone whole lake treatments for milfoil with herbicides and there's a reason for it - they were reluctantly pushed politically to even allow it on Minnetonka. Of all people, windsurfers and kiters are constantly exposed to the water and what's in it - shouldn't we be a bit more concerned? Is that what you really want in your lake?

It's tempting to jump to easy answers when we perceive a problem - there's an invasive species, it affects our recreation, we want to do something about it. The fundamental question though is, what do you want your lake to be? Do you want it to be a natural system that fluctuates and varies in quality over time, or do you want to treat it like a swimming pool? We have the ability (and in some cases the money necessary) to dump the amount of chemicals necessary in the lake to completely nuke the hell out of it if that's what we want - but before we do that we should ask ourselves if that's what we really want.

Sorry for the diatribe (I hate to sound too much like a hippie), but I've seen this debate go on for a while. Milfoil is a problem that needs to be dealt with - but dealing with it means that plans need to be enacted which take everyone's health into account, and not just settling for the easy answers. The one thing I agree with is that there is a lot of politics and BS, but it comes on both sides of the issue.

Fact of the matter is that the water is low all over this year - as a result the milfoil is bad, really bad. I'm out on Minnetonka at least once a week and Calhoun once a week as well. I can't say I ever remember seeing it this bad. But, I also know that this is a cycle and the rain will come back, the water will go up, and the milfoil won't be able to grow in the areas that it does this year in a low water year. We need to stop thinking that we can control the world and instead come up with real management strategies that are sustainable over the long-term rather than knee jerk reactions to the problem du jour.
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Tom L
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Re: Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by Tom L »

Wyatt,

This blog might be of interest to you. http://lmassociation.blogspot.com/2009/ ... tools.html
  • From my understanding the chemicals we are using in Tonka have been used for over 20 years in Michigan, Wisconsin, & other states. (not that this means they are safe)

    There is no swimming restrictions for these 2 chemicals.

    Both the granular & liquid form are heavier than water so they sink to the bottom.

    After as little as 7-14 days the chemicals breakdown into harmless components, and no trace of the treatment is detectable.
This is not some "knee jerk reaction to the problem du jour" years and years of research have been conducted in this area. Like all things there is a trade off. The people on the bays treated, as well as many experts, believe the benefits of chemical treatment outweigh the risk factors.


On Tonka we are using Endothall which is related to 2,4-D but is not 2,4-D & Renovate which is Triclopyr. Here are 2 information sheets for these chemicals.

http://www.lakeminnetonkaforum.com/down ... uathol.pdf

http://www.lakeminnetonkaforum.com/down ... vate_3.pdf
wyatt
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Re: Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by wyatt »

Thanks - I am familiar with the position of the LMA and also aware of the research conducted on milfoil. A thorough vetting of research related to milfoil can be found at this link:

http://fwcb.cfans.umn.edu/research/milf ... oilbc.html

I appreciate the fact that you want to deal with the problem, but I think you need to question the true "benefits" of what has been done on Minnetonka. Don't believe that milfoil will be simply eradicated with a few years treatment with an herbicide. Minnetonka is a complex system - it's huge (14,600 acres) and it's connected to dozens of lakes and wetlands upstream. Can milfoil truly be controlled if you only treat the end source? I don't doubt that there have been successful treatment of small isolated lakes in other states, but you need to acknowledge the unique conditions and characteristics of Lake Minnetonka.

The only thing that was proven by the Lake Minnetonka "demonstration project" (the LMA's term), was that herbicides kill plants (seems like no-brainer to me). But at what cost (monetarily, to the ecosystem, to public health)? And what is really gained? There is a three year experiment underway to treat aquatic invasives upstream at Gleason Lake in Plymouth. The residents lobbied hard for it and it was eventually undertaken, costing thousands. In the end, the invasive plants died and natives returned. Net gain: lots of native plants displacing the invasive ones in the exact same locations. In the end, they weren't satisfied even though they achieved the goal because their real goal was to have a lake free of plants.

Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't manage vegetation in certain portions of the lake to balance the tradeoffs between human use and the ecosystem, but don't kid yourself that Lake Minnetonka will ever be milfoil free without some sustainable bio-control, and further, don't kid yourself that herbicide treatments are short-term, cheap, and long lasting. Once you get into treatment on system like Lake Minnetonka, you're in it for the long-term (at least every three years), with a lot of ambiguity as to what the lasting effects will be on the ecosystem and everything on the lake.

In this case, I think we're our own worst enemy.
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Tom L
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Re: Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by Tom L »

Wyatt,

I don't want to get into an argument with you so let's drop this. You obviously are not familiar with the LMA program or you would not have posted so many inaccuracies. Do a little homework. This is a waste of my time.
wyatt
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:30 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by wyatt »

Hey, the last thing I want to do is create any hard feelings. I just get a little dismayed when I see people jumping to the conclusion that the herbicide fix is the answer to a fairly complicated problem.

The LMA is not performing research - they're an advocacy group that's only spinning one side of the issue with a select set of facts in hopes of implementing a specific program. I'm only pointing out that the risks and the tradeoffs are not fully taken into account with the work that they've done and propose to do in the future. The lake belongs to all of us, and before anything similar is done in the future, all of the questions related to the effectiveness, sustainability and externalities of these decisions should be taken into account. You may feel that they are, but I disagree.

I'm done now.
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Barry P
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Re: Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by Barry P »

Doing nothing can have bad long term effects too. Nothing is pretty much what the DNR has done since Milfoil showed up (10+ years now?)... except for post signs and drive a harvester around from time to time making things worse faster.
Paul F
Posts: 171
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Location: Portland Oregon

Re: Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by Paul F »

Tom L wrote:Wyatt,

I don't want to get into an argument with you so let's drop this. You obviously are not familiar with the LMA program or you would not have posted so many inaccuracies. Do a little homework. This is a waste of my time.
No need to get personal. I disagree with the LMA blog's description of dioxin, too. The chemical names of the herbicide and dioxin are different, but that is the case of all herbicides, including Agent Orange. Dioxin is an unwanted byproduct of the manufacturing of herbicides. I watched the PBS special and stayed in a Holiday Inn Express.
JRN
Posts: 2001
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Re: Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by JRN »

Rumor has it that a super secret reasearch lab at the U, is studying the possibility of a genetic cross between a Manatee & a Walrus. This beast will have the appetite to consume entire beds of milfoil, and the arctic capability to survive our winters. Coming soon to an ice-fishing venue near you!! :roll:
WARNING:
I AM AN UNREFORMED SERIAL FLIRT!!
(please respond accordingly ;^{})
markwasha
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Re: Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by markwasha »

The milfoil weevil is a natural control, but the politics are run by those favoring the chemical companies at this time. I appreciated the concern about our lakes here. Wyatt and other ecologically biased individuals please contact me, Mark Washa at : postmaster@lakewatcher.net
BSMITH
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Re: Weeds worse than ever on Calhoun

Post by BSMITH »

I say we bring in tankers full of chlorine and dump trucks full of white sand.
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